Salt Signs

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bulldog1935
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Salt Signs

Post by bulldog1935 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:22 am

My first loves in fishing are inshore kayak and shore fishing tide passes. The TX coast is lined with barrier islands, with more island-bracketed flats inside those, and the sheltered bays and sloughs include 15,000 sq-mi less than 2' deep - best place in the world to own a kayak. While I began this with fly rods, I've moved more and more to baitcast tackle.
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Up front - magnesium. Generally, magnesium reels should be considered a no-no for salt use. That said, well-anodized magnesium forgings are more resistant - forging literally squeezes the dirt from the alloy, while in cast magnesium, the included dirt makes anodic sites for corrosion to begin. (Backing up, I'm a metallurgist, corrosion engineer, and licensed PE). All this said, I've had no problems with magnesium Steez and Vanquish in a limited shore fishing niche, and I generally don't take these reels out on a kayak.

The tell-tale corrosion sign on magnesium is white, chalky deposits. On just a 3-day trip, ZPI Alcance in my MH niche showed up white chalk at all the frame screws. Kind of a shame, because I loved it in this niche, but I removed the screws, cleaned everything, replaced them with a magnesium-specifc thread compound, and retired the reel to freshwater BFS (w/ ZPI shallow Mg spool).
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if you ever wanted a hot-rodded BFS-capable Lew's, Alcance is it...

In your salt-safe aluminum reels, the first place a problem may show up are in cathodically coated magnets. After the first four salt years, my Super Duty showed onset of filliform corrosion in the coated magnets. Note that salt rust of steel is more corrosiive to the rest of the reel than the salt itself. Ferric chloride is an interim corrosion product, releasing both ferric ions and HCl, which will corrode even your brass gears. Always Remove any parts showing onset of rust.
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I replaced the magnets with same-size A/E Nd magnets, and the reel is trouble free with 3 more salt years.
Noteworthy, the Nd magnets were so much stronger than the stock magnets, I had to remove 2 magnets to get my mag operating on the stand-off adjustment cam.
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Bearings. Drive bearings are generally not a concern inshore, but may become a concern in surf, where full rubber seals should be considered. Inshore, labyrinth seals such as Shimano worm drive spinning reels are pretty perfect.
Shielded spool bearings, sealed line rollers. The best way to look at these, salt + moist air in, steam out - exposed shielded bearings and sealed spinning line rollers are concentration mechanisms for salt. all my Shimano spinners get MTCW dual-BB titanium line roller, which comes with a pair of unshielded micro-bearings, and can be flushed with a drop of oil.
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The same applies to B/C spool bearings. Unshielded hybrid ceramic w/ salt-resistant stainless races both perform better, and are flushed with a drop of oil before and after every 2- to 5-day salt trip. The photo shows Daiwa's shielded micro-bearing, Roro Air, and KTF/IXA double bearing - I get everything I want from the unshielded spool bearings in this photo. The IXA doubles increase the bearing capacity for both casting weight and drive loads.
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Here's what got me around to writing this essay. My Silver Wolf, matched with AMO spool, included AMO's double bearing copy of KTF/IXA - Except, they were not salt-resistant steel. I counted up, a total of 10 salt days last year, the AMO spool bearings showed onset of rust - didn't photograph, but extricated and threw them away instantly.
What was clear, though, the bearing rust was tossed onto my MagForce annular magnets, which sucked it up like a vacuum cleaner. It's not visually dramatic until you get the magnets removed for replacement:
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ahh, clean new annular magnets installed. Also full-silicon nitride 623 spool bearings (3x10x4 - 1030).
I am loving these bearings, eventually in all my Daiwa salt reels. They spin a spool longer than anything else, cast the lightest weights, never need attention or oil, total impervium to salt, both much quieter and higher load range than zirconia.
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My SLPW-Zillion w/ Ray's SV spool is also a champ with SiN 623 spool bearings.
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dragon1
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by dragon1 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:14 pm

Daaaayyyuuum...great details and information. Thank you for sharing!
"It is like a finger pointing away to the Moon...don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all of that heavenly glory."

bulldog1935
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by bulldog1935 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:53 pm

you're welcome - the question comes up all the time about what makes a reel safe in limited or full-time salt use.

In most cases, good rinse and limited maintenance is all you need. But you need to keep your eyes peeled for the little things, because they can go south and cause widespread damage in your reel if you ignore them.
Regards.

HellaBread
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by HellaBread » Sun Apr 21, 2024 3:27 am

I personally still don’t like ceramic hybrids that use a steel cage for salt as in my opinion any corrosion resistance benefit from the ceramic balls is moot from the fact the cages are still 440c stainless. 99% of my fishing is salt and nowadays I rarely upgrade bearings for corrosion resistant properties but when I do the only bearings I used that actually made a difference were hybrids with the same construction as zpi or hedgehog air HDs aka corrosion resistant steel alloy races, polyimide cages, ceramic balls which is also the most quiet construction for a hybrid bearing. Those things lasted an absurdly long time which included a year and a half of pure abuse/neglect followed by a year of storage without cleaning or relubung. My zpi set from 2017 finally died last summer. Nowadays for most uses I just stick with nmb/nsk stainless bearings unless its a setup I expect to get wet constantly which then i’ll throw in a set of zpis or nsk casstops

The KTF IXA double bearings were a neat concept but after trying them for the past year and a half they honestly weren’t super worth the money and those things require a specific lubing method of different viscosities on each of the bearings for them to work as intended. If you use the same oil on both only the inner bearing spins effectively making them normal micro bearings. YZ Craft SCS bearings are a concept i’m currently testing which is a micro bearing but in reverse.

bulldog1935
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by bulldog1935 » Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:53 am

My only reels that have full-size spool bearings are surf and frogger - 1 to 4 oz -
- and even in the surf, I have a BFS shore micro-jigging CT, starting at 3 g.

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I ran silicon nitride in loose-ball bicycle hubs for 10,000 mi. They have only been offering full-silicon-nitride in spool bearing sizes in the last year. Spool-bearing-size full-SiN have teflon ball cages.

Micro-bearings don't work in Ambassadeur Ultracast C3+, where the spindle is fixed in the frame, and the outer bearing race spins with the spool. I tried full-SiN first in 1040 and 1030 sizes, respectively in 4500CT, and '77 4500C, my favorite Ambassadeur BFS result. In the older 4500C configuration, the spindle is fixed in the spool, and spins the bearing inner race.

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In 1040 Ultracast, SiN makes a sound that grows on you, but the distance results are so phenomenal, you don't care.
The 1030 are plenty quiet in '77 4500C.

Full-zirconia ceramic don't have the load capacity for spool bearings, especially with surf weights, and are noisy beyond words. The only place I use them are the micro-sizes for LW bearings in Ambassadeur BFS.

I was so happy with the results for full-silicon-nitride in both Ambassadeur applications, I tried 1030 in my Daiwas.
On the casting range, they perform toe-to-toe with Roro/Hedgehog Air microbearings, sending 2 g past 130'
but their load range is much higher than Air micro-bearings or zircfonia - pretty much unlimited in spool bearings.

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My first fishing was shore-casting the '77 4500C, and it was sending 3 g to surface slashes 150' out.
Full SiN are going into all my Daiwa's for inshore kayak, and I'll test them over the year.
______________________

backing up to KTF/IXA double microbearings - they've proved their worth in inshore kayak.

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My OP was about an AMO BFS spool that came with AMO rip-off of the IXA doubles that were not made from salt-resistant stainless.
I solved that problem with SiN 1030 palm-cap bearing, and my own custom spool micro-bearing using IXA CBB 740 bearing insert (hybrid ceramic w/ salt-resistant races).
That AMO spool is now my fastest BFS spool.
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adding the IXA pss - my first '77 4500C bench result is a champ with the IXA 1030 doubles.
Last edited by bulldog1935 on Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jeffbro999
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by Jeffbro999 » Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:08 am

I use TSI321 in stainless and hybrid spool bearings, zero issues with rusted/corroded bearings. Used to go through spool bearings every 6 months or so with what was recommended on here, but TSI changed that. Same thing with the ARB, tried using what Shimano recommended, and was replacing roller bearings constantly. CorrosionX changed that as well, and haven’t replaced one since. Sometimes you just have to find what works for you and stick with it.

bulldog1935
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by bulldog1935 » Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:14 am

@Jeff - thanks for posting. IXA doubles have gone 3 years with the fish I posted above as a small slice - no problems, and they could keep spinning (twice).
Again, the bearing rust example I used in OP was a cheap knock-off of the IXA double that came with AMO BFs spool.

Roro Air BFS bearings in my Steez went that long in shore finesse niche, as well, including snook catches.
Best example I can show is 18", hopping off the table, and went right back into the channel.

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The schoolie male spec catches are more impressive (stringer shared w/ dockmates).

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I've only gone to full-silicon-nitride this winter - they weren't available before - and mostly because of the performance improvement over stock and shielded bearings. They perform toe-to-toe the Air bearings, but have load range comparable to the stock bearings.
Last edited by bulldog1935 on Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

HellaBread
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by HellaBread » Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:46 am

bulldog1935 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:14 am
@Jeff - thanks for posting. IXA doubles have gone 3 years with the fish I posted above as a small slice - no problems, and they could keep spinning (twice).
Again, the bearing rust example I used in OP was a cheap knock-off of the IXA double that came with AMO BFs spool.

Roro Air BFS on my Steez went that long in shore finesse niche, as well, including snook catches.
Best example I can show is 18", hopping off thee table, and went right back into the channel.

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The schoolie male spec catches are more impressive (stringer shared w/ dockmates).

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I've only gone to full-silicon-nitride this winter - they weren't available before - and mostly because of the performance improvement over stock and shielded bearings. They perform toe-to-toe the Air bearings, but have load range comparable to the stock bearings.
The real question is are you rich/curious enough to buy and test the mc squared version of the double bearings. Jesus christ the price on those hurts my head

bulldog1935
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by bulldog1935 » Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:58 am

@HellaBread, I've been shopping Japan using broker Masamichi at noppin so long (18 years), I consider him a friend.
In those days, it was the only way to buy from Japan, both because of Japan banking laws, and the extreme language barrier.
He does me great, finding stock, baby-sat a rolled-from-scratch-on-order custom inshore S-glass fly rod,
gets questions answered we never could from this side of the big pond.

My most recent '20 Isuzu 420SSS buy, I followed it through 2 price drops in Yahoo 5-day auctions. When it didn't come back for a third, Masamichi found the seller and bought it for me.

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I put together several noppin caches each year, and it's easy to add in small bearing orders from KTF (handle or drag washers from Haneda Craft, Livre from SquidMania, etc). Using a broker doesn't limit you to buying from vendors marketing direct to US - it opens up the rest of Japan. Though I can still order from Hedgehog, pay small domestic shipping to noppin, 6% brokerge fee, and add it all into a single courier shipment from noppin.

IXA doubles come in at $15/ with broker fees.
My current noppin cache is waiting on a 14-pc order from Naturum, including half-price rod, hen's teeth lures and discounted Varivas Si-X braid.

Image Ima K-Ta 58 mullet

I'm getting the full silicon-nitride bearings from Ali Express, priced at $9/
Robert, @tincanary, has also gone to full-SiN in his small-frame Ambassadeur size, and likes them as well.

Generally regarding double bearings - casting light weights, only the inner race and inner micro-balls spin with the spool spindle, which makes them Air BFS bearings. Casting heavy weights or with big drive loads, the middle race and outer ball row spin, giving them high load range.
Ulucus is another Japanese brand offering double-row bearings.
Last edited by bulldog1935 on Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

HellaBread
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by HellaBread » Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:51 am

I was talking about you being curious enough to try the MC Squared double bearings. I know how much the IXAs cost, the double bearings made by MC squared were a custom production to be dimensionally correct at 3x10x4 or 5x11x4 so a set of 2 bearings was like $80

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bulldog1935
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by bulldog1935 » Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:05 am

My first BFS Air bearings were from Hedgehog.
My next were from Roro, and I couldn't tell a difference, except the price.
Both are better than the Ray's Studio examples I've tried.

IXA MBS, CBB and doubles from KTF have held up extremely well for me in hard salt fishing.
Not my best red from last fall's Rodeo, but the best photo

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In my shore fishing salt finesse niche, my biggest concern is that last 10% cast distance, because fishing both slopes of the tide pass doubles my fish chances.
We were on stacked snook here at first light.

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Guess I didn't see the photo edited into your reply while I was composing just above.
HellaBread wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2024 10:51 am
I was talking about you being curious enough to try the MC Squared double bearings. I know how much the IXAs cost, the double bearings made by MC squared were a custom production to be dimensionally correct at 3x10x4 or 5x11x4 so a set of 2 bearings was like $80
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I'm not sure what you could gain by that, other than added mass and increased inertia in the races - the ball size is dictated by the available radius. The spindle/race is not a wear surface, so reducing contact stress doesn't have an advantage.
Reduced mass is part of what reduces inertia in Air bearings, gives you better distance by quicker start and needing less brake force through mid-cast.
In a 1040 size, that bearing wouldn't function on this AMO spool, because the added inner race width wouldn't shoulder right on the odd spool shaft, center the spool, or let the reel palm plate close. I had to toggle this custom Air bearing to replace the non-salt-resistant AMO double that was delivered on this spool.
But it finished out to be the fastest BFS spool I own.
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Aquaftm45
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by Aquaftm45 » Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:37 pm

I picked up some when I was finalizing my Abu 2500. Had to do a couple of bags as they don't sell two of the correct size in a set. Ended up putting one of the leftovers in a Calcutta 50. Haven't seen them available anywhere since I bought mine from HH. I do see what I think are China versions on YJP that are basically one bearing pressed into another. Not sure if that is how the IXA's are or not. The MC's are manufactured as a double. They work great and are very consistant, I have no problem with 2.5 grams on the Abu, which is about as low as the rod will go.
I'm not rich, but had already spent a small fortune on the ABU and figured TWH.

Great posts btw Bulldog
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bulldog1935
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by bulldog1935 » Sun Apr 21, 2024 3:11 pm

Aquaftm45 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:37 pm
....Great posts btw Bulldog
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Thanks friend. Sweet reels, and a great one-off 2500C - congrats on that.
Since I'm here, my 1500CI, which weighs an even 6-oz with all the Avail parts.
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KTF only sells their IXA double in 1030 and 1130 sizes, which is perfect for most Daiwa and Shimano.
When they pair them with larger or smaller in a set, the second bearing is their single-row MBS
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Last edited by bulldog1935 on Mon Apr 22, 2024 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

tincanary
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by tincanary » Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:43 am

Here's an AliExpress SiN bearing versus a Hedgehog Air BFS. Note how much smaller the balls are in the SiN. These can be run without oil as the races and balls are SiN and the cage is Teflon. They are noisy, but not as noisy as zirconia. I don't mind the noise one bit since the audible feedback they provide is a pretty good indicator of when I should be letting the spool tickle my thumb.

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bulldog1935
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Re: Salt Signs

Post by bulldog1935 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:06 am

@tincanary - thanks, I hadn't seen them in small-frame Ambassadeur 1150 size.
Pretty sure my 1500CI has Roro bearings.

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a little more salty show and tell, this U/C surf-lure CS Rocket has the full-size 1040 unshielded hybrid ceramics, 5-mm Avail spool w/ PE#2, full LW race. RocketReelCo stainless BB drive. And a Hen's teeth Akios barstock LW frame.

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