Archangel 8ft Heavy

[Hobie-Wan Kenobi]

Has anyone used this rod?

How stiff is it? Is it a meat stick or does it have some flex to it?

Have you used it for punching? The rating look like it may perform similar to the Complie X flipping rod.

[Brad in Texas]

I know it seems perverse, but a stiff 8' rod, say with a heavy rating, a fast tip . . . means the "lifting point" on the rod is so far from your hands (fulcrum) that you certainly aren't going to be able to get much leverage yanking a large bass out.

What would work best would be a shorter rod; and, while it can be rated heavy or medium heavy, if you used a moderate instead of a fast tip, it would mean that when you set the hook and the shorter rod bends nearer your hands, you are going to have much more leverage over the fish. The lifting point on a rod is determined by where it bends, how much force it takes to put a decent bend in it. The more a rod bends, the shorter the lever, the more power an angler has over the fish.

Long rods have their places but I think punching is not one of them. I think the manufacturers sell them because they are more expensive, bigger profit margins. But, the physics behind it????

Brad

[Hobie-Wan Kenobi]

I see your points Brad but pitching is easier and the longer rod allows me to work the bait vertical in more spots.

[Brad in Texas]

Good points. This is the reason behind very long crappie rods, often 10 feet or more . . . that one can pull up on top of the fish and then using the long reach of a 10 footer to drop the presentation straight down on their heads.

I'd say pitching for accuracy would be much better with a shorter rod . . . but I have seen people perfect long rod pitching. But, one can always "pitch" a bean bag with one's hands into a series of targets much more accurately than one who has to pitch it at the end of a long stick lever. I think, here, on this point, it depends on how far you plan to pitch. Not far for most folks, certainly not from boats.

Regarding working your presentation vertically, I get that, but the large majority of strikes while punching through mats occur on the initial drop. But, no doubt, your angle on a longer rod would be a bit better.

Just to add more discussion points, not intended to influence or argue, the ideal punching rod and reel would likely be something around a 6'6" or 7' medium heavy to heavy spinning, moderate action (more parabolic) rod with a 4000 series spinning reel holding 50+ braid. The reason? You can penetrate the mat or grass with a much lighter weight, and most people agree you want as light a weight as you can get by with punching. With a spinning reel, since the line is slack off the reel, once it hits it falls on loose line . . . straight down. That is much harder to do with a baitcaster where you have to feed it off the reel. If you don't feed it off, the line "cuts" into the edge of the hole and affects the drop.

Ha! No, I don't suspect I have convinced many people to use a 6'6" medium heavy to heavy, moderate tip, with a 4000 series spinning reel with a good drag system.

But, I have to try. Greek Tragedians knew that the world pivoted and moved along not so much by reason but by irony. So, today we have Trump and Clinton running for Pres . . . and how ironic it is we've been convinced we need longer rods for more power. Ha!

Brad

[Hobie-Wan Kenobi]

I finish my follow through on my pitch higher when punching or pitching to deep water. That way I can follow my lure down on semi tight line to allow a straight drop. I feel a longer rod is easier to pitch with. I can be accurate with any size rod.

As far as accuracy, you can make a a lot of adjustments in air, almost like Angelina Jolie in Wanted.

[legendaryyaj]

Brad,

Are you an engineer? You theorize like one. I say that all in jest.

I can only speak from my personal experience, but you are right that a short rod is has more accuracy. I used to believe the 7'6" had better accuracy until I went back to a 7' rod and it was a night and day difference. Then again, I once argued that point and someone on here said the salt guys pitch the groves with longer rods so......I don't know.

As for punching, I started with a 7'6" and went to a 8"' rod and it made a world of difference. The biggest benefit came from when you threw it further back into the deep stuff. How does that matter? Well, the longer rod doesn't let that heavy weight crash into all the vegetation as you pendulum it back to make another punch/pitch. To me, I don't want to cause that much disturbance bringing that weight back. A fast reel helps a lot too. If it's close quarters, the longer rod isn't need but if you are punching, more than likely you'll be pitching far back into the nasty stuff. I've never fished the tide until recently, but I can understand where it really comes into play there. When low tide, a lot of that vegetation is sitting a lot higher out of the water and when high tide, those fish are tucked back in that stuff. Again, I don't know anything.

Line recovery is also important in my experience and a longer rod definitely helps with that.

[Brad in Texas]

No, not an engineer but a physics background in college. A long time ago: Archimedes and I were classmates. Ha!

Yes, longer for better pitching/flipping distance . . . but with some issues if the rod is so long that it limits the degrees of range available. If you are, for example, sitting in a kayak, a long rod will work poorly.

Yes, accuracy will diminish and so will lifting leverage. But, if you snag a 2 lber. it'll feel like a 4 lber. on an 8 ft. rod. That isn't all bad.

For fresh water, in close applications, I'd guess that 6'6" to 7', moderate heavy to heavy, with moderate action . . . and not the fast tip, would be best as the more parabolic bend (closer to the hands) will increase lifting leverage.

The best compromise might be a 7 footer for distance considerations but with a parabolic bend so it effectively becomes a much shorter rod (its lifting point would move back toward the fulcrum) under load. Best of both worlds.

Hey! Here is an angler who uses spinning tackle for punching and flipping, etc. He explains why, that he is more accurate, can get the presentation in places he couldn't with a baitcaster and, importantly, he can use a much lighter weight to penetrate the gunk.

https://www.flwfishing.com/tips/2014-04 ... inning-rod

Brad

[Teal101]

A lot of it has to do with the spool and reel as well. I use the Amart Flip for punching and it works great. The longer rod gives me more leverage to toss the bait on the pitch so it aids with lighter weights. The spool is a ZPI Blue Emblem which I run on 0 mag brakes and with the cast control loose enough it free falls on its own. I punch into cover and then let the bait drop with the line riding off the spool. I punch a lot of grass in reeds as well and I can lob the bait up and let it crash down through the reeds and the mat and never thumb the spool. I've punched with the Pefect Pitch as well and it cant handle the bait like the Amart does for distance, especially with the lighter weights. I agree with you on the leverage, a shorter rod is better there, but to me the benefits of the longer rod getting my bait into cover outweighs the leverage deficit. Accuracy isnt an issue after some practice. My pitches are 10-35ft (the long ones being more underhand lobs which is more accurate than an overhead cast and much more subtle). The shorter rod really strains me to get those long shots in there.

[Hobie-Wan Kenobi]

I too think there isn't really a limitation to what weight you can pitch. Bearings and a spool go a long way. I set my reel to be pretty loose as well. I prefer a baitcaster because I can control the velocity easier than with a spinning reel.

[Hobie-Wan Kenobi]

quote="ccass"]Has anyone used this rod?

How stiff is it? Is it a meat stick or does it have some flex to it?

Have you used it for punching? The rating look like it may perform similar to the Complie X flipping rod.[/quote]

...So...has anyone used it?

[Randingo]

Lots of bass fishermen have a bad habit of fighting fish with the tip of the rod, making a powerful hook set and keeping the rod nearly, and sometimes beyond, vertical when fighting the fish. If you do this, the length of the rod is your enemy. If, on the other hand, you load the butt of the rod, the extra length can function as a shock absorber. Musky guys have gone away from the short rods of twenty years ago and now use rods eight to nine feet long for almost all applications. This allows casting of big baits with less effort, greater control of the bait, improved figure eights (which has nothing to do with bass fishing), and I don't know anyone who says they feel like they've lost leverage when fighting fish, and that's because you learn to keep the angle of the rod low and fight the fish with the butt of the rod and allow the remaining length to absorb shock. Not surprisingly, bass fishermen don't have a reputation in the wider fishing community for having great technique when fighting fish. Because of where bass live and how they eat, we use equipment strong enough to whip 50+ pound fish for fish that might average three pounds, so fighting techniques have never been high on our list of priorities. A long rod doesn't have to work against you to any significant degree when fighting fish in the bass world; put the bend in the powerful section of the rod and you won't give up the mechanical advantage.

[poisonokie]

Lots of bass fishermen have a bad habit of fighting fish with the tip of the rod, making a powerful hook set and keeping the rod nearly, and sometimes beyond, vertical when fighting the fish. If you do this, the length of the rod is your enemy. If, on the other hand, you load the butt of the rod, the extra length can function as a shock absorber. Musky guys have gone away from the short rods of twenty years ago and now use rods eight to nine feet long for almost all applications. This allows casting of big baits with less effort, greater control of the bait, improved figure eights (which has nothing to do with bass fishing), and I don't know anyone who says they feel like they've lost leverage when fighting fish, and that's because you learn to keep the angle of the rod low and fight the fish with the butt of the rod and allow the remaining length to absorb shock. Not surprisingly, bass fishermen don't have a reputation in the wider fishing community for having great technique when fighting fish. Because of where bass live and how they eat, we use equipment strong enough to whip 50+ pound fish for fish that might average three pounds, so fighting techniques have never been high on our list of priorities. A long rod doesn't have to work against you to any significant degree when fighting fish in the bass world; put the bend in the powerful section of the rod and you won't give up the mechanical advantage.

Word.

[poisonokie]

Also you don't run the risk of snapping your rod.

[Randingo]

And I'm sorry; I continued the hijacking of this thread. I hope you find someone familiar with the Archangel.