Rod Guide?

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BRONZEBACK32
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Rod Guide?

Post by BRONZEBACK32 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:11 pm

I noticed that my Conquest 842 spinning rod has 10 guides, the Addermine has 9 and my Megabass Flyssa that is 7'6" has 8 total.

Can anyone explain that? :-s

I would of thought that the Flyssa would have more...

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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by poisonokie » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:33 pm

I'd say they laid the guides out in such a way as to get the right action out of the blank. Sometimes less is more. Or fewer is more as the case may be.
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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by ShimanoFan » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:10 pm

In my opinion guides are placed based on the curvature of the rod under load. It all revolves around the shape of the rod under load, and line flow around that curve under load, and the number of guides relates to what it takes to keep the line flow at a specific distance from the blank. Some curves take more, some less.
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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by Aquaftm45 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:22 pm

If you ever want a mind scramble, read the dissertations on each Evergreen RS/GT series rods. Their putting double foot Ti/TOR here, single foot TI/SIC there, 8 mixed guides over yonder, 11 same-same guides around the corner. All in the name of evoking a specific action throughout each rod. I'm not sure if its BS or mad science. At least it appears they are putting thought into each build. I love the one I have, whatever it's supposed to be doing, it's doing.

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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by BRONZEBACK32 » Thu May 02, 2019 3:39 pm

I spoke to Megabass today and mentioned the Flyssa and guides.

I was told they wanted the least amount of guides for weight but the right amount to spread the force
to multiple parts of the rod blank, the Flyssa also has a smaller stripper guide (first guide) then the Addermine.

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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by Mnsmallieguy » Thu May 02, 2019 5:41 pm

11 on a 7'3" MHXF St Croix Legend Tourn Bass

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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by Polkfish1 » Thu May 02, 2019 6:37 pm

BRONZEBACK32 wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:11 pm
I noticed that my Conquest 842 spinning rod has 10 guides, the Addermine has 9 and my Megabass Flyssa that is 7'6" has 8 total.

Can anyone explain that? :-s

I would of thought that the Flyssa would have more...
You peaked my interest interest to read up on this. Nutshell; weight savings is a large consideration among many so they are often aligned with as few as will possibly impart the optimal action. A caveat being that with micros it’s typically better to have more than fewer, but the extra weight is negligible as you get into the micro guides. Couple different schools if thought on how to optimize guide setting, but I won’t go into trying to recap. It’s easy to find. I only did a quick google search, so I hope rod builders can correct anything false with the above cliffs notes.

A quick look over my rod rack did reveal that the more pricy rods in my collection seemed to have a guide or 3 more than stuff toward lower end with megabass being a notable exception in several cases. Definitely not the rule; X7s are loaded up on guides, but those are micros so there you go.

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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by BRONZEBACK32 » Thu May 02, 2019 8:20 pm

I have read quite a bit lately on rod guides and spacing.

Not sure if different brands and sizes makes spacing different, I will just leave it to the maker :big grin:

The Flyssa stripper guide is about 4" higher then my 7" spinning rods, but it casts like a dream....just sayin
But so does my Conquest 842s

I will be testing them side by side tomorrow, but my guess will be on the flyssa due to the length.

I've heard more guides make the rod more sensitive because it causes more contact to amplify more signals, but I
have also heard less guides will be more sensitive because the blank is lighter ](*,)

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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by ShimanoFan » Fri May 03, 2019 5:42 am

BRONZEBACK32 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:20 pm

I've heard more guides make the rod more sensitive because it causes more contact to amplify more signals, but I
have also heard less guides will be more sensitive because the blank is lighter ](*,)
The spacing of guides has always been about line distance from the blank during under load line flow. I have never heard guide spacing is for weight purposes- until now.

And as to sensitivity issues... let me weigh in on that one since I spent 25 years dealing with vibrations and signal flow...

Technically speaking, a rod has an input and an output of vibrations.

They enter the blank from the tip only and travel down the blank and they exit at the handle.

The guides after the tip are NOT receiving the same vibration input signal the tip is receiving. It is physically not possible. So they can not possibly be amplifying anything. A spinning rod would work with one stripper guide and one tip and nothing else in between. Line control might be an issue though.

The only way any guides after the tip could receive the same signal would be to not run the line through the tip and instead exit the line off the rod at say the 2nd guide or 3rd guide. Then the tip is taken out of the picture and now that 2nd guide or 3rd guide can receive the same input signal. It is the only way for those guides to get that signal as a direct input. Otherwise, they are simply in the way of the signal transmission down the blank.

Point is, those guides only receive input signal as it travels through the blank, and if anything, those in between guides are vibration barriers, and the more a blank has, the more vibrations they will MUTE and prevent from reaching the output stage.

So to improve a rod's sensitivity, technically speaking, the fewer guides a rod has the easier the blank can transmit the vibration signal down the blank.

Here is the principle... ring a bell. It rings nicely unmuted. Now touch the bell with your hand. The hand stops the vibrations and mutes the signal.

Guides in between the tip (input) and the handle (output) do the exact same thing to the blank in stopping vibrations as the hand does to a ringing bell.

More hands means faster and stronger muting effect. Or, on a rod, more guides, more thread wraps and heavy epoxy use all contribute to muting the input signal of the rod blank before it can reach the hand at the output stage in the handle.

Hope this helps...

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As an added sideline to discussion, we all know every physical object in the Universe has a resonant frequency.

Rod blanks are no exception to this rule.

Therefore, the lower the pitch or resonant frequency of a rod blank, the less sensitive it will be. The higher the resonant pitch the more sensitive it will be dictated by simple physics.

If you have a rod that is so rubbery, like a rubber band, it will absorb vibrations coming into the tip and very little is transmitted down the blank to the hand. A rubber band has a resonant frequency of somewhere in the range of .5 to .9 Hz. Very low on the scale.

And the reverse is also true. The harder the rod blank is, the more solid it is, the easier it will transmit vibrations from the input to the output.

So the higher the resonant frequency of a rod blank is, the more sensitive it will be.

Tap your rods and listen to its sound. Give it the bounce test and see how long the rod vibrates on its own. Does it keep vibrating, or settle down quickly?

Lower frequency rod blanks keep vibrating. Higher frequency rod blanks settle down quickly.

I've used a thousand rods in my 40 plus years of fishing, but I have found only one rod with a high resonant frequency. Most rods have a thud or dead thud sound to them. Only one rod I have found in all my years actually has a nice ring to it. It has a voice all its own. Click the cast button of a reel, and the vibration is transmitted to the rod and it talks with its own voice. When braid slides through the guides, it creates a signal that is transmitted to the rod blank and it begins to sing with its higher pitch resonant "voice".

Only one rod. Not going to say what or who because I am searching the world over for more than one. I want 5. And yet in all my years I have only come across one.

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So guys, when you build your own rods, if you care about sensitivity, then a reduction in in-between guides is key, and reduce the amount of thread wrapped around the blank, and reduce the amount of epoxy used.

The most sensitive blanks do NOT have an epoxy coating on the entire blank. And, a custom rod builder should not use heavy amounts of epoxy up and down the blank, and especially all that decorative wrapping closer to the handle.

All of this is vibration killers.

For the most sensitive rods, minimal is better. If you don't care about vibrations, then load the blank up. Mute that input signal!
------------------------

I'm adding one last section of thought... we have all probably watched on youtube how rod blanks are made. The graphite is not what transmits the vibration signal down through the rod. Graphite is an excellent conductor of electricity, but not necessarily vibrations because it is really quite soft- like a pencil lead...

One way to test this is to look at the source material rods are made from. It is a woven fabric that comes on a roll.

If you have one of these rolls of graphite fabric, whether laying on a table or mounted on the roller, put one hand on the left side of the roll and then use the other hand to hit the right side of the roll and then determine how well it transmits the vibrations from the input source (right hand hitting roll) to the left hand or output side.

What you will find is this material is not transmitting vibration very well at all. It actually absorbs most of the signal before it reaches the output.

And when this fabric is cut into the piece used to make a rod, it is laying flat on a table before being rolled into a rod on a mandrel. Pick this fabric up and you tell me how well it is capable of transmitting vibrations from one end to the other. It doesn't.

So the only natural conclusion is that it is not the graphite in the rod blank that determines sensitivity. It is actually the binder, or epoxy used to bind the graphite fibers together into a rod blank.

The only way graphite contributes to sensitivity is by its light weight. Heavy mutes vibrations. Lighter vibrates easier. So graphite can contribute to sensitivity merely by weight more than anything else.

What graphite does is give the rod its physical strength. sort of like steel cables inside a concrete slab. It is only there for strength. And it is chosen because of its physical properties of being light in weight, but strong in strength.

You can use the same graphite fabric with two different epoxy binders and get significantly different results.

That particular rod I have with a high resonant pitch, I have discussed this with a well know rod blank builder, one of the tops in the field actually, and he also confirmed this when I asked him about why this one rod sings like it does, and he said it was in the curing process. Meaning- it has NOTHING to do with the graphite!

The sensitivity of a rod blank is not determined by the graphite, but by the epoxy binder used and how well it is cured, or not.

One thing I am left wondering is if the epoxy will reach a certain hardness and stay there, or, is it possible for a particular epoxy to continue hardening with age similar to concrete?

And, since it is not the graphite in the rod that determines its sensitivity as well as not the determining factor in strength since those fibers can only hold strength when embedded into a binder like steel cables in concrete, then why does the fishing rod market direct the focus onto the graphite while completely ignoring the real secret to rod making which is the binder? This is a subject never discussed, never mentioned and no rod blank builder will discuss it either and yet it is by far the most important factor of all.

Clearly rod blank builders want us to focus on less important factors while also telling us some real BS that physics does not support which are used as sales gimmicks, but muddy the waters out here for all of us to wade through.

Any way, just some stuff to consider...
Why is there a concerted effort of hate? And why is it allowed?

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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by ShimanoFan » Fri May 03, 2019 6:28 am

BRONZEBACK32 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:39 pm
I spoke to Megabass today and mentioned the Flyssa and guides.

I was told they wanted the least amount of guides for weight but the right amount to spread the force
to multiple parts of the rod blank, the Flyssa also has a smaller stripper guide (first guide) then the Addermine.


If this were in any way true, then the ultimate rod guide system to access every part of the rod would be to flow the line through the center core of the rod blank and forego guides all together.

This way you get full blank access with zero guides for less weight, and force is spread out by direct contact to every inch of the rod blank. There! Problem solved! Not so fast...

But the problem with this is for one, the inside of the rod blank can not be smoothed out like glass so line flow has reduced friction under load. Not possible with so much line contact to blank. Only solid mono type of line will flow through the core of a rod blank without hanging up. Try running braid through a core only rod and it will hang up. I know. I had one. It sucked. I sold it. Casting was horrible. Reeling in a fish was difficult with so much line flow friction it ain't funny.

Therefore, less is better.

And spreading the force to multiple parts of the rod also does not make sense in physics since it is the tip that receives the load force. The in between guides do not receive as much load force as the tip does except under load only, but it is merely a line flow redirection hold from the natural line flow path under load, and not technically a direct load hold. And technically they do not have to be there period.

In between guides are not for load, but are more for line control. You can access everything the blank can deliver with just a tip only same as a construction crane can access full load of crane with a tip only.

A spinning rod would work fine just like a huge construction crane works fine with a reel and a tip only. No in between line guides needed to spread out the force. Total BS they are telling you.

All sales gimmicks. Physics is the natural guide to the truth.
Why is there a concerted effort of hate? And why is it allowed?

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Re: Rod Guide?

Post by poisonokie » Fri May 03, 2019 9:46 am

:shock: 8-[
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