Kistler 2020 prices up!

[Cal]

I seem to remember Kistler saying they were going to be coming back with new blanks they were making themselves. However the way they wording it it seems unclear if NFC is making the blanks, or Kistler are buyig the material from them and they are rolling them...

It's been some time since I've had a conversation with Trey about their rods. What was the time frame when you heard the news about Kistler's intent on rolling their own blanks?

I ask because before the advent of North Fork Composites, Kistler was indeed intent on rolling their own as a way of taking matters into their own hands after inconsistent results from overseas suppliers. Once the relationship and partnership with Gary Loomis and North Fork Composites was struck, and Z-Bone was born, they slowly revamped their entire lineup with blanks sourced from NFC.

I didn't realize the Heliums are now on yet another blank but it wouldn't surprise me if true based off of all the difficulties I've been reading TT members have been having with Edge Rods which is the rod building arm of NFC. I can't speak to the price increases but I can surmise it probably has to do, at least in part, with the rise in material costs.

Kistler specs some lively actions. The difficulties they've encountered have all stemmed from blank suppliers. Rogue Rods was the source of the original Heliums and something happened to sour that relationship. I'm not aware if Rogue is even around anymore. Once that happened, Kistler, like 90% it seems of the rod industry, went overseas. That's when all the breakage issues occurred and nearly took them down. Then NFC happened and things turned around.

I was hopeful they were going to be able to create their own blank factory because we need more competition based in North America, but rolling your own blanks is a lot harder than it seems. Obviously or else we would have more than three? Maybe there is more, but I can only think of Loomis, St. Croix and NFC.

[montey]

I seem to remember Kistler saying they were going to be coming back with new blanks they were making themselves. However the way they wording it it seems unclear if NFC is making the blanks, or Kistler are buyig the material from them and they are rolling them...

It's been some time since I've had a conversation with Trey about their rods. What was the time frame when you heard the news about Kistler's intent on rolling their own blanks?

I ask because before the advent of North Fork Composites, Kistler was indeed intent on rolling their own as a way of taking matters into their own hands after inconsistent results from overseas suppliers. Once the relationship and partnership with Gary Loomis and North Fork Composites was struck, and Z-Bone was born, they slowly revamped their entire lineup with blanks sourced from NFC.

I didn't realize the Heliums are now on yet another blank but it wouldn't surprise me if true based off of all the difficulties I've been reading TT members have been having with Edge Rods which is the rod building arm of NFC. I can't speak to the price increases but I can surmise it probably has to do, at least in part, with the rise in material costs.

Kistler specs some lively actions. The difficulties they've encountered have all stemmed from blank suppliers. Rogue Rods was the source of the original Heliums and something happened to sour that relationship. I'm not aware if Rogue is even around anymore. Once that happened, Kistler, like 90% it seems of the rod industry, went overseas. That's when all the breakage issues occurred and nearly took them down. Then NFC happened and things turned around.

I was hopeful they were going to be able to create their own blank factory because we need more competition based in North America, but rolling your own blanks is a lot harder than it seems. Obviously or else we would have more than three? Maybe there is more, but I can only think of Loomis, St. Croix and NFC.

I believe I read it on the Kistler site that they were not going to be using NFC for the new rods. This is a little while ago when the new site was first talked about. I'll see if I can find it.

[Cal]

So... from what I read on Kistler's website, in their "our story" section, Trey continues to state the blanks are supplied by NFC.

In the Helium Rod section, they state the rods are made from graphite supplied by Toray, not the actual blanks, but the raw material. A lot of companies use Toray raw material as well as graphite from I think it's Mitsubishi - could be wrong on that one. The memory fails me often these days

Anyway... I did send Trey a note asking for confirmation on whether or not he's still relying up on NFC. We'll see if he has time to respond.

[goldrod]

So... from what I read on Kistler's website, in their "our story" section, Trey continues to state the blanks are supplied by NFC.

In the Helium Rod section, they state the rods are made from graphite supplied by Toray, not the actual blanks, but the raw material. A lot of companies use Toray raw material as well as graphite from I think it's Mitsubishi - could be wrong on that one. The memory fails me often these days

Anyway... I did send Trey a note asking for confirmation on whether or not he's still relying up on NFC. We'll see if he has time to respond.

Thanks Cal!
This should be most interesting

[white84z]

I'll still be picking up more Kistlers when they have sales. The new KLX is basically the old helium 3. Same blank and Kigan guides. The new H3 has the Fuji guides and I'm ok with that. The only other rods I fish are Megabass and that because I bought them before my kistlers. Next on my list to own is a Zbone.

[rtb83]

I was hopeful they were going to be able to create their own blank factory because we need more competition based in North America, but rolling your own blanks is a lot harder than it seems. Obviously or else we would have more than three? Maybe there is more, but I can only think of Loomis, St. Croix and NFC.

Cashion rolls their own blanks in house, which I was surprised to see from a more budget friendly builder.

[Cal]

Cashion rolls their own blanks in house, which I was surprised to see from a more budget friendly builder.

Very cool... we met them a couple years ago at ICAST but for whatever reason, they weren't too keen on us even though we have a very good relationship with John Crews, one of their pro staff, and Mike Neal, a former staffer.

We do meet the occasional small builder that claims to roll their own blanks but the critic in me is usually skeptical. Not to say I'm skeptical of Cashion, I'm not. There are one or two others that come to mind that from years past where the Spidey senses told me they weren't being entirely truthful.

[Cal]

Thanks Cal!
This should be most interesting

Confirmed... all blanks are still being sourced from NFC

[DavidSA]

on one hand I'm pleased to see the continuation with the NFC blanks. the models I own I've been very satisfied with. The information or mis-information on the site I can't seem to be as pleased about. Over a number of years this is somewhere between confusion, lack of attention to accuracy and in some cases potentially outright mis-leading claims. In the end, I think this just hurts the brand and I don't think creates any advantage for the brand

[Cal]

on one hand I'm pleased to see the continuation with the NFC blanks. the models I own I've been very satisfied with. The information or mis-information on the site I can't seem to be as pleased about. Over a number of years this is somewhere between confusion, lack of attention to accuracy and in some cases potentially outright mis-leading claims. In the end, I think this just hurts the brand and I don't think creates any advantage for the brand

Where is the mis-information you're reading? I think it may be a case of people reading too much into the information that is provided. They clearly state in the About Us section blanks are from NFC. They state raw materials are from Toray... this is the material NFC is using.

[DavidSA]

I think it is emphasis on a a material. Upon second look i see NFC in the fine print. I can't say if this existed when I initially posted several days ago but certainly I did not notice it initially.

You are expert in this space. Why would someone market an ingredient vs the final product? So much goes on in the mfg process that the final product may or may not look like the ingrediant. to the average consumer, it seems to me to create more confusion then help.

[Cal]

You are expert in this space. Why would someone market an ingredient vs the final product? So much goes on in the mfg process that the final product may or may not look like the ingrediant. to the average consumer, it seems to me to create more confusion then help.

LOL... i dunno about "expert" but I do have a lot of experience and perspective thanks to TT. ... my gut feeling in this situation is that they just wanted to change up the narrative a bit otherwise the site becomes a marketing tool for NFC when the emphasis should be on Kistler's own product - if that makes sense.

We all read into stuff, initially, what we kind or perceive or want to perceive, so that's why it's important to look carefully. But what do I know because all our reviews and articles are biased, right? Yes, we still get that a lot too

[DavidSA]

you might be correct Cal

I put my branding hat on and read a 3rd time and came away even a bit more confused. to the original post,

- I don't get why the price changed
- appears to me the rod has changed in some way because you will notice the Helium reviews started all over again and only 2 exist. as a brand, you never want to loose reviews unless you are forced to because of a product change
- The zbone selection does not seem populated yet. can't seem to get to any 5 powers for example

if you search my history I am one of the more positive reviewers of the H3 and zbone so I'm not intending to bash

[Cal]

I put my branding hat on and read a 3rd time and came away even a bit more confused. to the original post,

I can't speak to reasons or not for price increases. Maybe the original, NFC blank Helium prices were artificially low? Maybe the blank costs have gone up? Maybe labor? It's not inexpensive to build rods in the US, I think we all know this. Maybe it's a combination of all of the above?

Remember when G.Loomis IMX was right around $225 and GLX was $350? ... IMX is now around $350 and GLX is $450

Probably just a natural progression in a retail product prices and one we, as consumers, are always reluctant to accept.

[DavidSA]

yeah, I don't really have an issue with the price increase. The performance of the graphite in the H3 I own is better then my classic IMX and GLX blanks and even in 2008 the GLX as I recall was about as expensive as the H3 will be for 2020.