Pre-ICAST spy photo!!!

[STEEZMAN2]

Interesting read on brake systems.

So lets talk about the Magforce 3D.
-Would you say in longcast mode it behaves like Mag Z?
- " " " in midrange mode it is more like a Z or V?
-How about mag brake mode, will that give the same slow speed pitching performance of the Mag V?

[ScoobyDoo]

What makes the z so special that its the same price as a Tiagra 50 wide long range special????

I mean that 3d brake system is nothing special. Its not made of some rare material from an asteroid or something....so what's so special???

Well, I suppose you could say the same of DC technology which, unless I'm mistaken, is based on electromagnetism and silicone chips. Given that 3D is new and supposed to achieve similar versatility as DC braking...

I have to disagree. And I also want to clarify my original comment in regards to the material its made from. As I was directing that to its frame material being aluminum.

The part that I disagree with is The dc brake functions differently than any of the other three types. As there is no braking at all in the beginning of the cast. Which is why it performs so well hitting better distance numbers. And at the same time is more accurate at mid to long range as there no swing on sidearm casts. Which with the others you will get a left to right fade. But the dc can get squirrely up close as you are in pretty much freespool.

If all this 3 d setting does is move the magnets closer at 3 preset distances. And then let you fine tune it from there it's a complete waste of money. At least if thats what the price jump is for.

Perfect example. I knobby magged a Avet. In free spool the spool is closer to the mags so I can adjust it and have a higher top end and low end of braking. Bump the lever drag to bait and the spool pulls slightly to the handle side. Now both the high and low setting are drastically reduced and can throw even further. Sounds like to me this is all they have done. Which unless you don't know how to cast a revolving spool reel is completely unnecessary. As with any mag v and z reel the highest mag setting is a breeze to throw in even the nastiest of headwinds. And the lightest is all off. Not sure what the need is for a fine tuning of the braking adjustment other than marketing??!!

Before posting about the 3D braking system, you need to understand the hole concept of the Mag-V/Z.
Look here: http://www.japantackle.com/Topics/brake_system.htm read twice.
After, if you still have questions about Mag-V/Z and Mag 3D I will be here to answer.
After reading the info on the link, the following statement will look a Cliché: "The dc brake functions differently than any of the other three types. As there is no braking at all in the beginning of the cast."
Daiwa braking mechanisms have been doing this for so long that everyone by now takes it for granted.
There is nothing new of the DC brakes except that they use electronics. More, it seems that they are still far from perfection as you mentioned.

Concerning the price, probably it cost 5$ to make the hole brake system but the price of the design, technology and performance is much higher. Its the same for the DC.

Just a few things. I'm new here and don't want to go tit for tat with reel talk. But I just want to let you know I am fully aware of how all the daiwa magnetic systems operate and function. I'll even go out on a limb and say in a given model year I"ve even gone to tackle shops and opened up sideplates of reels looking for reels that lacked the magnetic rings, and used individual neodymium magnets to make up the brake instead. There are 2 different mag V designs that work on the same premise Rotating countering magnetic poles. And the Neodymium version offers a much wider range. I don't think I've ever seen that brought up before. And daiwa never disclosed the reason as to why they offered the two different versions. Which performed differently and were put into reals shipped on the same day one release order to tackle shops.

But yes I fully understand how they work. And I have to disagree on there being no mag braking at start up. Even at start up. Without the lateral pressure from the centrifugal blacks pushing the aluminum ring into the the heart of the magnetic field there still is a bit of braking. Which is exactly why the pixy worked so well with light lures at close range. And why all magnetically braked reels are easier to control at shorter distances at closer ranges.

Which is why I prefer the daiwa over the dc shimano at night when blind pitching to cover in a float tube casting from water level. (I caught and released the NJ state record last night in the pouring rain doing this)

Like I said. I'm not trying to pick a fight. You probably didn't know that I work on a few hundred reels a year ranging from accurates, Jiggingmasters, Daiwa Marinpower 3000 to the POS Zeebaas reels as a hobby. I do tons of mods on reels and I'm not talking putting on cork knobs either (Well I have put T bar handles on stella 20000 SW's )


As far as what makes the Z so expensive. I'll probably have one sent to me or have a local shop call me up to come in and bust it apart and see what makes it tick. But I'll stick with my original assessment. IT AIN"T NOTHIN SPECIAL!



And again I like daiwa freshwater baitcasters. So I want this reel to be worth every penny. But from what I've seen so far. It ain't.

PS Without having even seen how the 3d brake worked my original GUESSESSMENT (I invented that word ) Was spot on. All the switch at the bottom does is move the magnetic rotating rings in and out.
So what else makes it so special to charge 650 bucks for an aluminum reel with magnetic control.

[Buck2thPerch]

CAL, I just read the quick blurb you guys had on the Pixy-R and Z200H. From my sources, the Pixy-R should have 13.2lbs of Drag Stock. You guys listed it at 8.8lbs. I highly doubt my source is wrong. I am guessing you guys are too busy to really test this yet. But please elaborate if you can.

Those numbers are off of the factory specification on the JDM model. We took those numbers because we didn't have the official spec on this reel yet, and the drag material did not appear to be different enough to warrant a test prior to the preview article.

Our JDM Pix PX68 tested at 9.5lbs.

I caught your note just before leaving the lab, so I took the liberty of spooling up the PX L Type-R and threw it on our drag machine. 5lbs maximum pressure is what this reel delivered.

Thanks Cal. Kind of odd that Daiwa USA manufacturing drag listed as 13.2lbs. I have all the Daiwa Manufacturing SPECS on each new reel. Something is not adding up.

[Buck2thPerch]

Interesting assessment Scooby. I think we all agree we understand how Daiwa's Mag Brake works. To me, though, with 3D Mag Brake increases the fine tuning of said reel's Magnetic Braking system. But lets all just hold our opinions until we have actually used and cast Daiwa's touted 3D Mag Brake. I didn't think the DC Braking system of Shimano's was that great until I actually used a DC Calcutta. I was so amazed by Shimano's DC System, that it makes Shimano's regular Centrifugal brakes like stone age tech.

[fob bob]

more more more!! where's all the info on the spinning reels??

[e_bassfisher]

As far as what makes the Z so expensive. I'll probably have one sent to me or have a local shop call me up to come in and bust it apart and see what makes it tick. But I'll stick with my original assessment. IT AIN"T NOTHIN SPECIAL!

have you fished with it? from the tone of your posts, i think you are wasting your time looking at one as you will likely never change your preconceived notion of the reel. but i assure you, if you fish it, and objectively assess your experience with it, you will find it to be an incredible machine.

while i agree that $650 is obscene for ANY reel, it is my opinion that the z2020 smokes ANY reel i have ever used...including DC reels (that are quite amazing machines also) and the steez. and it is well built from quality components and is among the only reel i have had in a LONG time that i did not feel the need to tune.

[ScoobyDoo]

As far as what makes the Z so expensive. I'll probably have one sent to me or have a local shop call me up to come in and bust it apart and see what makes it tick. But I'll stick with my original assessment. IT AIN"T NOTHIN SPECIAL!

have you fished with it? from the tone of your posts, i think you are wasting your time looking at one as you will likely never change your preconceived notion of the reel. but i assure you, if you fish it, and objectively assess your experience with it, you will find it to be an incredible machine.

while i agree that $650 is obscene for ANY reel, it is my opinion that the z2020 smokes ANY reel i have ever used...including DC reels (that are quite amazing machines also) and the steez. and it is well built from quality components and is among the only reel i have had in a LONG time that i did not feel the need to tune.

Have I ever fished the reel...Absolutely not.

Now like I said before. I want the reel to succeed. All my reels are either daiwa or dc for freshwater baitcasters. I just want to make sure that daiwa isn't just pushing hype. For you to say it smoked a dc reel. Is saying something. Now in what areas did it outperform it. How long did you fish it for and did you have the dc as a direct comparison. I'm a fan of high end gear like the next guy. I've also been burnt by very high end gear (twice the price of this reel and had a friend get burnt by daiwa getting a 900 dollar repair bill after the second trip....Yes 900dollars plus shipping )
So I'm aware that even at high prices gear aint perfect. But just like anything else you reach a point of diminishing returns. Now daiwa milked the sheet out of the MG craze with the steeze. As that was a pretty good reel. But now they went in the opposite direction and followed it with a steep premium. Now don't get me wrong I love tank reels. But for freshwater bass fishing there really isn't much stress put on a reel that a 200, 300 or 400 dollar reel can't handle. Even if your using 80lb GSP.
But how is this reel better than a steez or Zillion in the hands of someone who knows how to really cast. As at this price point. Only serious bass guys are gonna take the plunge. And thats where it needs to shine.
What are the gears made out of. Brass?? Chemically hardened aluminum or Stainless?? If its silky smooth, my bet is standard brass like everything else.

I guess what I really am trying to say is did they just slap a pic of a calais DC and calcutta DC on a dartboard and just throw blindfolded, and then say.. OOOH 650$ lol.(search my name under penn torque spinner whats under the hood...great read and it gets pretty funny at the end). Do youself a favor and look at the new radical technologies they've implemented in their high end spinners. And then compare the price jump. Then look at whats different here and tell me if it should command the price. I'm never against any reel company...Just when they take advantage of an ignorant market. And it happesn all the time.

I have my affiliations with 3 major rod and reel manufacturers both loose and contractual. One of the members here may heard somthing about it from the reps. None of which are Daiwa (one of my fishing buddies is though >saltwater product only). But like I mentioned I have a fondness of their fw baitcasters. I didn't gain these by winning tournaments but by my accurate disection and assesment of their gear pre and post release which ended up in multiple redesigns. Just figured I'd be open about.

Tight lines headin out for some midnight bassin....

[FKA Incognito]

What makes the z so special that its the same price as a Tiagra 50 wide long range special????

I mean that 3d brake system is nothing special. Its not made of some rare material from an asteroid or something....so what's so special???

Well, I suppose you could say the same of DC technology which, unless I'm mistaken, is based on electromagnetism and silicone chips. Given that 3D is new and supposed to achieve similar versatility as DC braking...

I have to disagree. And I also want to clarify my original comment in regards to the material its made from. As I was directing that to its frame material being aluminum.

The part that I disagree with is The dc brake functions differently than any of the other three types. As there is no braking at all in the beginning of the cast. Which is why it performs so well hitting better distance numbers. And at the same time is more accurate at mid to long range as there no swing on sidearm casts. Which with the others you will get a left to right fade. But the dc can get squirrely up close as you are in pretty much freespool.

If all this 3 d setting does is move the magnets closer at 3 preset distances. And then let you fine tune it from there it's a complete waste of money. At least if thats what the price jump is for.

Perfect example. I knobby magged a Avet. In free spool the spool is closer to the mags so I can adjust it and have a higher top end and low end of braking. Bump the lever drag to bait and the spool pulls slightly to the handle side. Now both the high and low setting are drastically reduced and can throw even further. Sounds like to me this is all they have done. Which unless you don't know how to cast a revolving spool reel is completely unnecessary. As with any mag v and z reel the highest mag setting is a breeze to throw in even the nastiest of headwinds. And the lightest is all off. Not sure what the need is for a fine tuning of the braking adjustment other than marketing??!!

I disagree about standard Mag V/Z having the full range of useable brake adjustment. There is a huge difference in R+ and standard Magforce (fixed inductor) braking. Without having tried the 3D braking my expectation is that, when closest to the magnets, the spool inductor will provide quasi-linear braking (standard Magforce), whereas when set furthest from the magnets it will provide quasi-R+ braking profile. For optimal versatility I suppose the spring tension on the inductor should vary according to the 3D setting, but I suspect this is almost impossible to achieve. I agree that the underpinning of 3D "technology" appears much more rudimentary than DC, but what counts is the end result. Credible people on this site have unequivocally vouched for the performance of the Z2020 so I have to believe that it approaches or equals DC casting (doesn't DC have an issue with high inertia at startup, cf Cardiff DC review?) But yes, it would be nice if Daiwa used the opportunity of its low tech solution to DC braking to undercut Shimano's pricing and pass on the savings to the consummer.

[dragon1]

As far as what makes the Z so expensive. I'll probably have one sent to me or have a local shop call me up to come in and bust it apart and see what makes it tick. But I'll stick with my original assessment. IT AIN"T NOTHIN SPECIAL!

Why is the DC new gen reels MORE expensive, as are collectibles...market pricing vs how a product performs on the water vs what you see taking it apart to maintain it; have very little connection as to whether a product is "special" or not. Get in on the water with the Z vs other reels of this power/size category and see if anything else will give you the same performance, feel, power, precision and durability...then come back and post a more meaningful and field tested response.

BTW, YEN exchange rates vs US dollar vs actual cost to design and engineer and manufacture also has a lot to do with cost of a product...the Z aside.

The Z is an original offering of it type in the market as the TDZ was for an LP MG FW bass reel...and nothing less IMO.

[africanbass]

Judging from Z user feedback on this forum,the reel is a big winner despite its 'hefty' price tag.That may tell you something

[e_bassfisher]

Have I ever fished the reel...Absolutely not.

kind of hard to judge it then, no?

For you to say it smoked a dc reel. Is saying something. Now in what areas did it outperform it. How long did you fish it for and did you have the dc as a direct comparison.

i find the 3D braking much more stable and convenient actually. the effectiveness of the modes for the 3D braking is something you have to experience to believe. and don't get me started on the drag; there is no comparison, the z is vastly superior in this department.

i have been tinker on, tuning, and repairing reels for quite some time. so, i have been afforded the opportunity to spend a fair amount of time with most any reel you can think of. i have a lot of experience with the dc reels, and i currently own none. because, i own a z2020 IMHEO, it is the baddest reel ever made. i can throw a wieghtless floating worm with it, or go punchin' mats w/1-1 1.2 oz tungsten. in my arsenal, it covers frogs, pitchin', and deep heavy football heads; works beautifully.


just fish with one for a while....you will see

[REW]

The Z is really bugging me. It seems like it could be an awesome performer, but the aesthetics irk me. It seems kind of dated, in that the front of it reminds me of an old Lamborghini Countach (but less refined). For those who have handled the Z, do the pictures overstate the flat, angular look? A trivial concern, perhaps. However, considering the price, and the fact that I don't actually need another reel, it is a stumbling block.

[dragon1]

Short review: http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=32066

Pics:

[GARRIGA]

The Z is really bugging me. It seems like it could be an awesome performer, but the aesthetics irk me. It seems kind of dated, in that the front of it reminds me of an old Lamborghini Countach (but less refined). For those who have handled the Z, do the pictures overstate the flat, angular look? A trivial concern, perhaps. However, considering the price, and the fact that I don't actually need another reel, it is a stumbling block.

Yes, it's flat but it's ultra comfortable. To me, it feels more comfortable then the Curado 300E many would say is a cheaper alternative. Compared to the Pluton with similar specs and internals, it's night and day more comfortable. Basically a low profile alternative for those who are forced to use round reels for heavier applications. Now, if Daiwa only made it 5.1 then I could see it replacing many 200 and 300 size reels for those who prefer to throw braid. BTW, I actually like the look although I can do without the gold bling on US 6.4 version.

[Carlos Carrapiço]

Interesting read on brake systems.

So lets talk about the Magforce 3D.
-Would you say in longcast mode it behaves like Mag Z?

I would say that in long cast mode, the reel will performs like Zillion HLC spool.

- " " " in midrange mode it is more like a Z or V?

It will probably perform as the normal Zillion but with the advantages of a lighter and small spool like the one on the Steez 100.

-How about mag brake mode, will that give the same slow speed pitching performance of the Mag V?

You mean Max brake mode? This will be probably very similar to a fixed rotor spool. Probably will give very good pitching/skipping performance.