"Borrowed" ideas

[dragon1]

Okay fellas...thought it would be tactful and more poignant to start a new thread.

For those of you on the Tatula thread on the TWS issue that bird walked on innovations of Daiwa to Shimano, etc., and with the reiteration that I noted that Abu has brought about more innovations to FW bass fishing reels than both rising-sun brands:

- Dual bearing supported pinion, ie, X-ship with Shimano...Daiwa preceded with a version of this design, and likely as did Abu.

- Swept handle is a design cue, so I will not note this as innovation. Regardless, Daiwa brought this design to market and popularized it.

- Instant anti-reverse bearing...yep, Daiwa before Shimano, and IIRC, before Abu in FW bass fishing.

- S Design spool...hmmm, I have an inkling that Abu's anti-distortion design was a pre-cursor to this design.

- Micro Module, okay, a Shimano innovation.

- HEG - aside being had in SW reels for years before FW reels, I recall the Morrum IVCB having this before the Calais 100A or even the Antares AR. So Abu.

- Multi flying arm design - try Abu IVCB and for Japanese, Ryobi.

- Centrifugal, whether 2, 4, 6 brakes systems, etc...Abu.

- Perforated spool in FW BCs...hmmm, hard call between TDX and CH SF or Calais 100A. Interestingly enough, not much out there has been introduced by other manufacturers that is akin to Daiwa's GIGAS.

- Spool design with bearing placement on spool for "free floating" of the spool shaft...I don't believe this is so much the Tat copying a Shimano design as both of the rising sun twins copying Abu.

- Ci4...sorry, Zaion predated this per Daiwa's press release of their version of "carbon fiber reinforced plastic" in 2007.

- Autocast thumbar, single thumbar design on FW BCs...IIRC, this is an Abu introduction to the FW field in the early 80s.

- High speed gearing to provide for 30" + IPTs in FW BCs...try PT33SH from almost three decades ago.

I am sure there are plenty other common design cues that I have forgotten on FW BCs...and of course I haven't touched on anything for thread lines.

I look forward to reading some entertaining replies.

Again, I have strong affinity for both Shimano and Daiwa and Abu...or in any order that I type these three out. This said, I don't pull punches to "favor" one over the other just cause of price, what is hot, what others think, what a pro endorses, etc.

[dragon1]

Of course I would love for ROG to contribute to this thread and blow everything out of the water...then again, the BIG THREE are still viable and leaders in the FW (and SW) market today.

Shimano

Daiwa

Abu

[Bootytrain]

As far as xship, once again different spool shaft designs. What Daiwa with a long spool shaft has dual bearing support? I think reel using a long shaft spool can use one bearing because the spool shaft itself is more than likely also supporting the pinion under load. With a free floating short shaft spool the pinion is not so it would be obvious that it would need at least another bearing or bushing for support on both sides? Case in point, my T3b is sorely lacking in power, but its a double bearing pinion is it not? My Met XG has plenty of power to even pull big double bladed spinners where my T3b is crying uncle. The purpose of a free floating spool is lost on me as i see zero difference in casting effort between the tatula r vs the T3b. Once again style over substance. You left out the self recharging digital circuit of Shimano DC. And lets not forget that Shimano made the first low profile baitcaster for Lews lol. So I guess we need to give props to LEWS for any low profile innovation. I would also love to hear ROG or someone else with years of experience to give us a history lesson.

[dragon1]

T3 does not have oversized main gear? X-Ship does not contribute to more cranking power, rather smoothness under cranking load. Cranking power comes from gear ratio, main gear size, gear design efficiency, handle length...not from dual supported bearings on the pinion gear. Guess you did not get a chance to read my post on how one of my Daiwa BBS reels out-cranked for power, bettered for IPT, and was smoother under cranking load than an HEG equipped TE GT 100? Only upgrade was a longer handle on the BBS...no HEG, LP vs RR, comparable gear ratio on both reels.

And yes, X-Ship is a different version/design of what previously existed.

FWIW, you should compare the Met XG with the newest Zillion high speed, as that is more like competitor from Daiwa's line-up than the T3.

FWIW, here are the basics of what cranking power is about, even in a near 30 year old reel: http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic. ... ilit=pt33c

Yes DC for Shimano...but the point of your post on the other thread was that you did not feel that Shimano was less innovative than Daiwa. Point is, Daiwa and Abu (Abu more so than the Daiwa or Shimano) has contributed more innovations to FW "bass" reels since the 80s than Shimano. Again, IMO, Shimano improves on others' "innovations", and they do it well...but yes, they also bring innovations as we expect they should.

Let's not even speak of "styling cues", aftermarket upgrades, limited edition reels. Daiwa/Ito created the market as we know it today. But to keep things clear, I suppose we should be speaking of engineering innovations and not design innovations?

Shimano made the guts for Lew's series of reels back in the late 70s...whether Shimano also drew up the design?

[tywithay]

The Calcutta XT had a wiffle spool in 1991.

[Zimbass]

Dragon1 you know the technical side of innovation, and seem to have some form of photographic memory, or at least a good reference library

It may be that certain manufacturers come up with new ideas, and others "borrow" these. As the saying goes "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".What matters to me, and many others, is how well the borrowed technology is used. In certain instances the borrower improves the idea, either with the use of superior materials, or by tweaking the idea to work better than it's originator.

I am a practical guy that works on reels and have a good understanding of how they work. Whether a certain space age material is better than plastic, or if steel, aluminum or brass gears are better comes down to the intended application of a reel, and the cost to the consumer. That said, and purely my opinion, Shimano has copied/improved on others ideas.Their products were not my first choice, as I was an ABU man. After over 25 years of using Shimano, there is no way out

[21farms]

Autocast thumbar, single thumbar design on FW BCs...IIRC, this is an Abu introduction to the FW field in the early 80s.

i'm almost positive daiwa introduced this first. starting in the late 70s, i used to take the bus to a sporting goods store on the other side of town at least a couple times a month to gaze at all the fishing reels and lust after the newfangled fenwick graphite rods (which, back then, carried an astronomical $120 price tag ). IIRC, the first time i ever saw the thumb bar casting switch was in the early 80s and it was on a daiwa procaster. i saw that abu started incorporating them on some of their round reels but they felt terrible in comparison to daiwa's iteration...instead of the entire thumb bar moving down when depressed and perfectly positioning your thumb like daiwas, abu's version was more like a button that pivoted at the point it was attached to the reel; not only did this not feel very positive but also required me to reposition my thumb after the cast.

[Jeffbro999]

Dragon1 you know the technical side of innovation, and seem to have some form of photographic memory, or at least a good reference library

It may be that certain manufacturers come up with new ideas, and others "borrow" these. As the saying goes "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".What matters to me, and many others, is how well the borrowed technology is used. In certain instances the borrower improves the idea, either with the use of superior materials, or by tweaking the idea to work better than it's originator.

I am a practical guy that works on reels and have a good understanding of how they work. Whether a certain space age material is better than plastic, or if steel, aluminum or brass gears are better comes down to the intended application of a reel, and the cost to the consumer. That said, and purely my opinion, Shimano has copied/improved on others ideas.Their products were not my first choice, as I was an ABU man. After over 25 years of using Shimano, there is no way out

X2. I agree with this. I'm all for innovation but what matters to me is who can perfect it. Its good Daiwa came out with Zaion first, now they need to perfect it. Only owned a T3 for a short time but it felt no where near as rigid as Shimanos Ci4 which they have again improved on with Ci4+. When will Daiwa update their Zaion? I also see no advantage in a free floating spool and if this was so innovative then why go back to the long shaft spool for the Tatula? Tatula on paper looks like a Daiwa copy of a Chronarch E with mag brakes and Twing that grooves. Another thing is the IVCB on Abu reels has not been as good in my hands as Shimano new SVS braking system. I had it on a Gen 3 Premier and it was no where near as consistant. Point is, innovation is great but don't let it stop there, keep workin to perfect it. And who's to say the other manufacturers aren't working on the same thing at the same time and one company rushes into production in order to be first. Well if its not perfect and the other manufacturers bring out the same feature perfected which would you buy? I know my answer.

[21farms]

zimbass and jbcrankaddict, i guess i'm sorta the opposite of you. i really value the companies that spend significant resources on research and development, innovating and pushing the envelope instead of merely copying someone else's ideas and i'm willing to pay a premium for their products. then again, i've bought plenty of fishing stuff from the other companies as well, much of which is excellent

[Jeffbro999]

zimbass and jbcrankaddict, i guess i'm sorta the opposite of you. i really value the companies that spend significant resources on research and development, innovating and pushing the envelope instead of merely copying someone else's ideas and i'm willing to pay a premium for their products. then again, i've bought plenty of fishing stuff from the other companies as well, much of which is excellent

I do appreciate the innovation, as that is the only thing that will move us forward. But make sure its ready for market before release or improve it on future models. The Daiwa Twitching bar was a failure I understand (never used one) but why didn't they try to improve it? It had potential I guess but it never moved forward. A lot of research and development go into improving on ideas to. All reels are way to similar not to be copying something from other manufacturers. How about we go one step further away from the big companies and look at U.S. Reels. That was really innovative having no true levelwind, just a rotating bar. A lot of innovation there, but where did that get them? I appreciate the idea, but it just wasn't that useful in the real world. Now if they would have kept improving on it, who knows where we would be right now.

[hobobob]

you mean the seesaw level wind? Check this penn out, I am sure the original design is much much earlier.

[Jeffbro999]

you mean the seesaw level wind? Check this penn out, I am sure the original design is much much earlier.

Nice find! Thanks for the info. Do you know how long this was around before they stopped using it?

[Bootytrain]

T3 does not have oversized main gear? X-Ship does not contribute to more cranking power, rather smoothness under cranking load. Cranking power comes from gear ratio, main gear size, gear design efficiency, handle length...not from dual supported bearings on the pinion gear. Guess you did not get a chance to read my post on how one of my Daiwa BBS reels out-cranked for power, bettered for IPT, and was smoother under cranking load than an HEG equipped TE GT 100? Only upgrade was a longer handle on the BBS...no HEG, LP vs RR, comparable gear ratio on both reels.

And yes, X-Ship is a different version/design of what previously existed.

FWIW, you should compare the Met XG with the newest Zillion high speed, as that is more like competitor from Daiwa's line-up than the T3.

FWIW, here are the basics of what cranking power is about, even in a near 30 year old reel: http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic. ... ilit=pt33c

Yes DC for Shimano...but the point of your post on the other thread was that you did not feel that Shimano was less innovative than Daiwa. Point is, Daiwa and Abu (Abu more so than the Daiwa or Shimano) has contributed more innovations to FW "bass" reels since the 80s than Shimano. Again, IMO, Shimano improves on others' "innovations", and they do it well...but yes, they also bring innovations as we expect they should.

Let's not even speak of "styling cues", aftermarket upgrades, limited edition reels. Daiwa/Ito created the market as we know it today. But to keep things clear, I suppose we should be speaking of engineering innovations and not design innovations?

Shimano made the guts for Lew's series of reels back in the late 70s...whether Shimano also drew up the design?

I'm going to have to disagree again. I can tell the difference between my x ship and non x ship shimanos. The x ship ones definitely have more power and smoothness under load and can give you that " drag is not on" feeling. Which is what shimano intended(not the drag is not on part) when they designed it as an improvement over the previous design and you can feel it while fishing. While daiwa using 2 bearings to support their pinion on their free floating spool design was more than likely out of necessity due to the shaft not passing through. Case in point, I don't know of any long spool shaft daiwas with a double bearing pinion. If there is one somebody please point it out. To me innovations have to improve performance, not just changing something to be different.

[dragon1]

Dragon1 you know the technical side of innovation, and seem to have some form of photographic memory, or at least a good reference library

It may be that certain manufacturers come up with new ideas, and others "borrow" these. As the saying goes "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".What matters to me, and many others, is how well the borrowed technology is used. In certain instances the borrower improves the idea, either with the use of superior materials, or by tweaking the idea to work better than it's originator.

I am a practical guy that works on reels and have a good understanding of how they work. Whether a certain space age material is better than plastic, or if steel, aluminum or brass gears are better comes down to the intended application of a reel, and the cost to the consumer. That said, and purely my opinion, Shimano has copied/improved on others ideas.Their products were not my first choice, as I was an ABU man. After over 25 years of using Shimano, there is no way out

Absolutely true throughout in so far as borrowing...anyone recall the old school Daiwa Millionaire being a near 100% copy of the Abu Ambassadeur (internally) way back? I love Shimano's ability to refine, simplify and manufacture with consistent quality.

Bootytrain, torque is not dictated by the function of X-Ship or any design of bearing supported pinion gears. If you do some searching, you can find some enlightening info posted by Smalliesteve on how torque from gearing works on BCs. Again, X-Ship smooths out friction under cranking...ie, if you removed the X-Ship design out of these same reels, it would not necessarily change the cranking torque of the reel, but rather the smoothness under cranking load.

And yes, I have also believed most FW "innovations" were birthed from the SW world. The friction here is whether one believes "their preferred" brand, did or did not in fact bring to the FW fishing world a specific innovation (and doesn't want to hear/read/know otherwise). Perfecting an innovation or design has been had by Shimano, Daiwa and Abu on most of their offerings for many years now...granted that the IVCB in the Morrum IVCB 1st gen was junk...I know, I owned this reel.

Good stuff guys! And FWIW, I am a nerd and do lots of research and reading on lots of topics...fishing is only one of my hobbies and passions. Oh, and I learn a ton of stuff off of SW forums and from guys like Alan Hawke!

[Reel Old Geezer]

One inventive reel maker, Harvey Carlton, patented and marketed a baitcaster with A 9:1 gear ratio and a thumb bar free spool clutch. This was in 1905.

Centrifugal brakes were patented and used on reels in the 1890s.

Perforated spools were quite common in the 1940s on Langley reels.

Magnetic brakes were first used on a reel in the 1950s. They were patented by a GE engineer who designed them to slow down the shafts of large motors and machines. He also designed them for a reel that was manufactured by the Horton Mfg. Co.

There's probably many more "new" innovations that are only upgrades of century old inventions. Nothin's New.

Addendum: A couple more that occurred to me while rereading the thread:

Low Profile reel. A. F. Meisselbach Mfg. Co. made a tear drop shaped level wind with an extended "power handle" in 1924.

The rolling bar type level winding mechanism was patented in 1934 by the Spiral Wind Reel Company and they made a full line of reels in many different colors.

I don't agree that most innovations were made for SW reels. SW sport fishing wasn't even popular until the 20th century. They didn't have suitable tackle. I wrote an article about the first tarpon taken on a rod and reel. It wasn't until 1885 that someone was able to land one due to poor tackle. Shortly after the turn of the century high quality reels began appearing by makers on both the east coast and west coast. Just after 1900 they developed a drag that enabled anglers to successfully fight large fish. By then there were many innovative makers of quality fresh water casting and fly reels.

You can see most of these reels on my website, http://www.oldreels.com