Brass and aluminum together

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Brass and aluminum together

Post by mark poulson » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:43 pm

I have a few baitcasters that have aluminum main gears, but the small spindle-engaging pinion gear is brass.
Since I've been told the aluminum they use for these gears is so hard, can it scar the brass gear, when you are fighting a big fish?
I'm asking because a 12lb channel cat ate my Ika, and, once I finally got into the net and released, that reel felt "geary" the rest of the day, and it had been butter smooth.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by Aaronb » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:05 pm

Hard aluminum is still softer than brass. You'd be more likely to damage the aluminum gear. People install brass gears in place of aluminum sometimes for the added smoothness and durability.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by mark poulson » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:19 pm

Thanks.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by Aaronb » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:27 pm

It's possible the grease just got pushed out from between the gears from the hard fight. Applying some new grease might smooth the reel back up. Good luck.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by mark poulson » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:42 pm

Aaron,
That's exactly what I did. The gears on that reel looked dry, so I greased them, and put a drop of oil on all the bearings while I was at it.
Tomorrow I will get to test it.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by mark poulson » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:18 am

Update: Regreasing the gears cured the "geary" feel completely.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by BucketHunter » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:14 am

I'll echo that sentiment. When I catfish from my yak in the spring, I use a CU201e7. I have quite a few, and they are pretty maintenance free, oil in the bearings periodically and teardown in the winter. But for 2 months in the Spring, when it's 20-40 cats a day and sometimes the average weight is over 15lbs, I find I need to do quick teardowns and re-grease all the load points, otherwise I experience what you did.
I've actually started loading that reel a little more with lubricant for spring, as their is no retrieve except for fighting fish, and I don't mind it feeling a little sluggish during that season. I am also contemplating getting a thicker grease to use in May and June.
A word to the wise though, and my only real complaint about that era of shimano reels, is that the handle nut can loosen under a lot of repetitive load, and needs to be tightened periodically as well. I find this to be a problem on my frogging rod too, with lots of load and long fights. I wonder if switching out the plastic nut cover for a metal one would solve the problem :-k

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by REW » Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:37 pm

Aaronb wrote:Hard aluminum is still softer than brass. You'd be more likely to damage the aluminum gear. People install brass gears in place of aluminum sometimes for the added smoothness and durability.
What about the oxide layer on the aluminum? Provided it isn't in a state of wear, that oxide layer should be significantly harder than the brass, despite the softer base-metal, should it not?

I'm not being contentious. That was always my understanding about mixed-metal gear-sets. I'm not a materials engineer, so I am honestly curious.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by Bantam1 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:06 am

The brass we use for the pinion is a much harder alloy than your standard all brass gear sets. This is done because of the harder aluminum drive gear. When the CH50MG came out, we played with the aluminum drive gear and used the standard brass pinion from the Curado 100B. The pinion gear wouldn't last very long and did not feel that great initially. The harder brass alloy was needed and is what the engineers selected for the aluminum drive gear. We have come a long way since then with the current materials and coatings being used.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by mark poulson » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:57 am

Bantam1,
Thanks for the reply.
Is that the case with all major manuf's reels that use both aluminum and brass gears, or just Shimano?

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by Bantam1 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:15 am

I know others use this blend. Most spinning reels use either zinc or aluminum drive gears with a brass pinion gear. Typically your lower cost reels have the zinc gear and some of our competitors. The importance is making sure the brass alloy is the correct hardness for the aluminum. It requires a lot of R&D and testing to come up with the right blend. Then there is the surface treatment process for the drive gear which is a whole other story. You also have to use the correct grease, have a rigid platform to maintain gear alignment, etc.


The difference between Shimano and other companies is that we are a gear company (bikes, transmission gears, heavy equipment gears, etc) that makes fishing reels. We specialize in cold forging as well. To my knowledge we were the first to use cold forged aluminum for our drive gears in spinning reels. Unfortunately you cannot forge a conventional reel gear. Those still have to be machined.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by mark poulson » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:30 am

Thanks for the reply Bantam1.
I emailed the reel manuf., and they replied that both the aluminum main gear and the brass pinion gear are the same hardness.
This reel was buttery smooth for three years of heavy bass fishing. Then I hooked 12lb channel cat on a bass bait and 12lb test fluoro, and it took 3 min.+- to get it into the net.
Afterwards, on the next cast, the reel felt geary.
I took it home, opened it up, and the drive and pinion gears looked dry, like they'd never been greased. But I'd fished this reel hard for three years, so I'm guessing, as was suggested here, that the hard fight forced all the grease off of the gears.
I regreased them with Quatum Hot Sauce gear lube, and reassembled.
The reel is now smoother, but not like it was, so I'm wondering if the gears got scared, either from one being harder than the other, the lack of grease, or the gears being tweaked out of alignment during the fight.
It is not a Shimano reel, but it has a supposedly rigid aluminum frame.
I am curious because there was such a dramatic dropoff in how smooth the reel felt, before and after the catfish. I've never had that happen on another reel.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by Bantam1 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:32 am

I don't know what to tell you with other manufacturers. We have to remember that mechanical items do wear and require routine maintenance.

I wasn't trying to turn this into a Shimano pitch, so please don't take it that way. I just have knowledge from our side of the business that I felt was relevant to your question.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by mark poulson » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:50 am

I didn't read it as a Shimano pitch. Although four of my favorite reels the older Chronarch MG 50's.
I just appreciate you sharing what you know about gear materials.
I do semi-annual lubing of all my reels, so I was very surprised that this reel's drive and pinion gears looked so "unlubed"...grease-free. That made me wonder if the grease was squeezed off during the fish fight.
I'd never seen this before.

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Re: Brass and aluminum together

Post by Bantam1 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:37 am

It could be the grease type. Some are "thinner" than others, or could change viscosity with temperature. Some grease will allow the gears to gall which may look like the grease just vanished. For Shimano reels we only recommend our grease. This is because we spent an insane amount of money and time to develop the different types we use.

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