gear meshing

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mark poulson
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gear meshing

Post by mark poulson » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:26 am

Would giving the pinion gear or the main gear an odd number of teeth even out the wear on both pinion and main gear (so they don't "seat"), and make them smoother? Would it let gears be replaced more easily, without having to index mark them?

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Re: gear meshing

Post by brownhl » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:52 am

What is index marking? I have for the last 15 years jus cleaned, applied Shimano ACE2 and popped them back in. Curado 100 B's now 14 years old.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by Jba1975 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:43 pm

I’ve worked on several brands of reels over the course of twenty years and have never had to mark or index gears.
If there was a problem with the gears they just got replaced.
Maybe I’m not understanding the question of indexing gears or I’ve missed something?

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Re: gear meshing

Post by mark poulson » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:12 pm

I have also never indexed my gears when I work on them, but I read here that some do, and that's why I asked the question.
Since I found a brass 7/1 main gear for my favorite reels, they are so smooth I forget how annoying that aluminum gear grind was, until I pick up another reel that still has an aluminum main gear. :evil:
Funny how that grinding sound makes me think the gears are wearing out faster, even if they aren't. I know I relube the aluminum gear reels a lot more often than the reels with brass gears. Probably just mishigas on my part.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by Slazmo » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:46 am

Wasn't that more to do with the aluminium being more tensile and less dense than brass in which it transmits the vibration through the handle shaft more...

All I kbow is I hate Aluminium on Brass / Bronze alloy pinion gears... I'd live with the added weight and much more for brass or whatever alloy they are...

Also the corrosion I'm seeing with aluminium main gears is honestly best asked as "why".

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Re: gear meshing

Post by Johnny A » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:41 am

I’ve read about something like marking gears on a spinning reel but not on baitcasters.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by mark poulson » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:05 am

Slazmo wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:46 am
Wasn't that more to do with the aluminium being more tensile and less dense than brass in which it transmits the vibration through the handle shaft more...

All I kbow is I hate Aluminium on Brass / Bronze alloy pinion gears... I'd live with the added weight and much more for brass or whatever alloy they are...

Also the corrosion I'm seeing with aluminium main gears is honestly best asked as "why".
I guess that might be true about aluminum transmitting more vibration. I just always assumed that noise equals friction equals wear and tear.

I don't fish the salt with my bass stuff, so I haven't seen any corrosion, but it makes sense that aluminum gears wouldn't like salt.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by Jba1975 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:09 am

I agree with Slazmo on the aluminum vs. brass. I’ve always used a heavier grease on aluminum gears to help with the vibration/ gear noise. Even then the results are short lived.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by johnD » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:45 am

Indexing used gear sets during maintenance certainly won't hurt anything.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by mark poulson » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:01 am

johnD wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:45 am
Indexing used gear sets during maintenance certainly won't hurt anything.
John,
For baitcasters, unless the number of teeth in the pinion gear are divisible into the number of teeth in the main gear by a whole number, so that the pinion teeth encounter the same sets of main gear teeth on every revolution, I don't see the point in indexing them.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by Slazmo » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:24 pm

Not that I've counted but I've noticed by the indexing lines I do, is that the pinion rotates 4 times to every one main gear rotation on a 5.0:1 ratio or there about reel (I don't do high speed reels).

While the science may not be here with unequivocally proven fact that it does help in maintaining gear relationships, noise etc - it's something I practice religiously. It's a definite case in spinning reels where you have a heavy wear pattern in main gears at certain rotation points in the 🕛 to 🕔 of the handle location or power stroke.

I personally never change the mesh point in baitcaster or spin reels, but in "my own" spinning reels (not baitcaster) I rotate the mesh to achieve best wearing of the two gears (1/4 turn every service), but for others I put them back in same mesh location.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by mark poulson » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:35 pm

Slazmo wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:24 pm
Not that I've counted but I've noticed by the indexing lines I do, is that the pinion rotates 4 times to every one main gear rotation on a 5.0:1 ratio or there about reel (I don't do high speed reels).

While the science may not be here with unequivocally proven fact that it does help in maintaining gear relationships, noise etc - it's something I practice religiously. It's a definite case in spinning reels where you have a heavy wear pattern in main gears at certain rotation points in the 🕛 to 🕔 of the handle location or power stroke.

I personally never change the mesh point in baitcaster or spin reels, but in "my own" spinning reels (not baitcaster) I rotate the mesh to achieve best wearing of the two gears (1/4 turn every service), but for others I put them back in same mesh location.
I get why you do it. I guess I'm too lazy, plus I lose count when I try to see how many teeth the main gear has!

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Re: gear meshing

Post by Bantam1 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:51 pm

There is no reason to mark or index the gears on conventional reels. Even with our newer spinning reels you do not have to do it (cold forged gears). Gear wear is simply gear wear. Aluminum drive gears are harder than the brass alloy gears. Even though we used a specialized harder brass material for the pinion gear, aluminum is still harder and will wear the pinion.

The gears also have a special surface treatment to eliminate corrosion, but this makes the surface harder than raw unfinished aluminum. Because of this we use a harder brass alloy on the pinion gear. Spinning reels have been using aluminum/brass combo gears for a long time. Longer than we have been doing it with casting reels. The difference is the gear design and how they wear together and transmit the load. Spinning gears are a ring and pinion type similar to what you would find in a differential on a vehicle. A casting reel has gears more like a manual transmission in your car. Inline with higher efficiency and less parasitic loss. This is why your typical car with a manual transmission will put more power to the wheels than an automatic transmission. Automatic transmission usually puts more torque to the wheels due to torque multiplication, but that is another discussion.

Your question on the other forum about even number of teeth is not the issue. As long as the pinion gear teeth are in contact with drive gear teeth the whole time, you will not have issues. Typically with the higher gear ratios, you have less teeth on the pinion gear. The reduction in teeth means less cranking power and more wear since you have less teeth to distribute the load and wear to. We got around it with MicroModule gearing. They have more teeth to start with.

Fishing high resistance lures and fishing heavier drag/line will also wear the gears quicker. It's simply a higher load on the gear.

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Re: gear meshing

Post by mark poulson » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:01 pm

Once again, thanks.

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