Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

[LowRange]

Go buy an SV spool. You will see for yourself and they are great skipping machines. I prefer my "old" Magforce V and Z spools for distance through.

I own several

Then try this. I just did this with my SS SV105. Place the paling side of reel up to your ear and flick the spool at max brake and at zero. At max there is a very pronounced soft thunk sound of the inductor seating that is not heard at o mag brake setting. For me it is heard a fraction of a second after I flick the spool.
[/quote]

OK, this is my last, last post LOL. I wanted to try this to see if I could duplicate what you are experiencing. I used my Sol with an SV spool and my Alphas SV105, adjusted the brakes, placed them to my ear and spun the spool but could not hear what it is that you are speaking of. I wonder if what you are hearing is the inductor being pulled back into place by the springs. When you spin the spool by finger the speed of the spool initially produces enough centrifugal force to extend the inductor but because you spun the spool by hand the speed quickly dies and the inductor is pulled back to its starting position by spring pressure. That's my best guess.
[/quote]
Yes I am hearing the inductor being pulled back into the seated/retracted position by the springs. Obviously this implies that at some point during the spool flick the inductor was extended. For me at least the soft tick sound of the inductor seating is heard at max brake setting on the spool flick and not at 0 brake setting.

If this was a purely centrifugally driven movement then it would be heard irregardless of the brake setting and it would be the spool flick that is causing it to extend. This is not the case because it does not occur at 0 mag setting but does at a high mag setting.

[LowRange]

I can also flick the spool very gently at max brake and hear the inductor seat yet a few scrolls of the dial later to half brake I do not and have to then flick it much harder to hear the iductor seat. This is evidence that the magnetic field intensity is crucial to the operation of Air Brake inductor extension. Also based on what we know for the twisting and extension motion of the Air Brake mechanism itself this becomes quite obvious.

Its great to learn these stuff about spools. Because they are not centrifugally driven as the primary means of inductor extension and based on my on the water experiences I have never looked at the SV spools as distance casters and am often perplexed as to why everyone is constantly on the search for the longest casting SV spool or to modify them into distance casters. That's not their deal. Go get a stiff spring Magforce Z spool.

[LowRange]

And if anyone is wondering what flicking the spool has to do with anything and how that related to a cast where you obviously put much more energy into the spool. While high mag dial will get the inductor to extend earlier in the spool's rotation than at low mag dial the inverse is also true. The inductor will stay extended longer or at lower spool speeds at a high dial setting. This is why they can skip so well at very low spools speeds as the bait skips across the water. With an SV spool set to max mag brake it takes very little RPM to keep that inductor extended.

[aavery2]

Sorry we are still so far apart on our understandings of how the SV spool system works. None the less it was an interesting and civil conversation and I enjoyed it.

[LowRange]

Sorry we are still so far apart on our understandings of how the SV spool system works. None the less it was an interesting and civil conversation and I enjoyed it.

NP it has been enjoyable an a learning experience. These are the kind of topics I love TT forums for.

[jvelth74]

Yes, it's true that earth magnets can't pull or push aluminium nor copper. But those can induce electromagnetic field (when moving in magnetic field). Could earth magnets pull or push this induced EMF? This EMF is something like 'stucked' in inductor. And if EMF is pulled or pushed, it pulls or pushes inductor.

[LowRange]

Yes, it's true that earth magnets can't pull or push aluminium nor copper. But those can induce electromagnetic field (when moving in magnetic field). Could earth magnets pull or push this induced EMF? This EMF is something like 'stucked' in inductor. And if EMF is pulled or pushed, it pulls or pushes inductor.

I dont think so. The magnets would have to move away from the spool to draw the inductor out. Sort of like passing a strong magnet over a peice of aluminum. You can get the aluminum to move but the magnet has to be moving. With Air Brake the ramps are what produces the linear inductor movement from a rotational movement of the inductor.

[LowRange]

Video showing Air Brake activation at maximum brake and minimum brake. The black ramp attached to the spool can be clearly seen separating and seating against the spool side ramp at max brake. Does not occur at minimum brake. Spool is an Aliexpress spool with Air Brake. Inductor is thinner than the SV spools but the spring is just as soft. The magnetic field intensity is the driving force behind SV inductor extension. The inductor has a greater inertia due to being in the magnetic field and this allows the inductor to rotate as the spool rotates which allows the Air Brake ramps to force the inductor outwards and deeper into the magnets.
https://youtu.be/IHpOjoip0ak

[Carlos Carrapiço]

This image is from Daiwa on the operation of Air Brakes (SV)




If you follow this link half way down the page you will see an SV spool in a dremel spinning with the inductor fully extending and retracting using only centrifugal force. Magnets do not appear to be needed for this system to operate just as Z and V.

https://www.lafishblog.com/daiwas-air-brake-system/

Before I start I'll make this very clear: My comments do not target anyone and have only the objective of bringing true understanding of the mechanism behind the Air braking system.

With that in mind: Daiwa France has no idea how the Air braking system works because there isn't any centrifugal force doing anything. Enough to see that no matter the spool RPM, the spool mass spins always in the same radius. If nothing moves radially, then the centrifugal force has done no work.

Two things make the air inductor move:

1) Once the spool changes its speed significantly (accelerating or stopping), the braking rotor will experience inertia and if the spool acceleration is enough, the inductor will have significant inertia and due to the ramp will move out. I did't manage to create enough acceleration with my Dremel to make it happen but I have notice frequently when having a backlash with braid and hearing the rotor click and get jammed in the out position.

2) This is the intended functioning mode: The spool accelerates in the beginning of the cast and at the very beginning the SV/Air spools work as a fixed inductor spool. Once it reaches a certain speed, enough braking force is generated in the inductor to make it twist and due to the ramp be pushed out and increase even more the braking effect.

To be sure, I have watched the video in the link and right away realised that the inductor cup was coming out due to the vibration. Decided to debunk this, unpacked my Dremel and mounted a SV spool on it. To get a proper grip on the spool axis and avoid concentricity problems, I attached the spool to the Dremel using the shaft end on the inductor cup.
The cup was free to move.
Then, I started the Dremel at 5000 RPM and went all the way to 30000 RPM risking my life in the name of science.
The inductor never moved.
To be even more sure, while spinning the spool, I approached a strong magnet to the inductor and it moved out.

Hope it helped bringing some light to this discussion.

[Carlos Carrapiço]

This image is from Daiwa on the operation of Air Brakes (SV)




If you follow this link half way down the page you will see an SV spool in a dremel spinning with the inductor fully extending and retracting using only centrifugal force. Magnets do not appear to be needed for this system to operate just as Z and V.

https://www.lafishblog.com/daiwas-air-brake-system/

I'm sure it can activate without the magnets present at a high enough rpm but the presence and intensity of the magnetic field allows them to extend at very low spools speeds where there is very small centrifugal force at work.

I'll ask again, do you not have any SV spools? This is very easy to verify for yourself in seconds. You can set the dial to max and flick the spool and hear the inductor extend and seat. As you scroll down on the dial you have to flick it harder and harder to get it hear the inductor. As you get low on the dial its becomes impossible to flick the spool hard enough to hear the inductor. With the ported Ray's spools you can actually see the the two white ramps through the porting on the spool as the spool spins. A hard flick at high mag dial will allow you to catch a glimpse of the inductor side Air Brake ramp sliding back and mating to the spool side ramp. With the Ray's it is harder to observe due to the thinner and inductor and stiffer spring. They extend at higher spool speeds and retract more quickly.

Very well noted.

Just wanted to praise your persistence in bringing the truth to this matter.
It's a great sigh of respect for society and human kind. It would have been so much easier to just seat quietly and watch the show.

[Carlos Carrapiço]

Sorry but we will have to disagree here, for a magnet to have an attractive force on the extension of the inductor it is going to have to act on something that is also magnetic, iron, nickel, cobalt. Aluminum is not magnetic and that is what your inductor is made from. As far as I can tell there is not a magnetic part in an SV spool assembly. I have showed you pictures of how this spool works right from Daiwa, if you have any evidence other than opinion please share it so we can all be he wiser.

Maybe you should read this before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake

Just think how the other daiwa spool work. None have Iron, nickel or cobalt in the inductor and yet, the brake works.

[Carlos Carrapiço]

The sudden revolution of the spool at the beginning of the cast is what extends the rotor on the Airbrake and SV spools. The rotor and spool are static before the cast. As the spool starts up, the rotor resists the start-up rotation of the spool and instead rides up the ramp on the spool. This forces the rotor out way before the spool reaches maximum rpm's(unlike mag-z and mag-v rotors, which extend a little later after spool start-up).

Correct: This is the inertial effect although I'm not sure how much does it play

However, the extension of the rotor is purely centrifugal on all the moving inductor Magforce spools, and the retraction of the rotor is purely mechanical, accomplished by the spring once the centrifugal force lessens as the spool slows.

Incorrect: What keeps the inductor extended is the twisting of the rotor due to the braking generated by the interaction between the magnets and the inductor (Eddy current brake) and the ramp.

[Carlos Carrapiço]

Also with air brake it is not at the inductor is attracted to the magnets but that the force acting upon the inductor makes the two ramps slide away from each other and one ramp is free to move while the other is fixed in place. This causes the inductor to extend.

Last post for me as we are getting nowhere. Centrifigual force is what moves the ramps and causes the inductor to extend. I showed you a video of this. Remember the spool in the dremel, no magnets anywhere but yet the inductor extended.

Think we are deadlocked my friend, might take a look at the post Tim made.

I tried with my Dremel and the inductor on my spool didn't even move at 30 000 RPM
Maybe you should try it by yourself and let us know your results.

[aavery2]

Sorry but we will have to disagree here, for a magnet to have an attractive force on the extension of the inductor it is going to have to act on something that is also magnetic, iron, nickel, cobalt. Aluminum is not magnetic and that is what your inductor is made from. As far as I can tell there is not a magnetic part in an SV spool assembly. I have showed you pictures of how this spool works right from Daiwa, if you have any evidence other than opinion please share it so we can all be he wiser.

Maybe you should read this before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake

Just think how the other daiwa spool work. None have Iron, nickel or cobalt in the inductor and yet, the brake works.

Read the thread and then get back with me.

[aavery2]

The sudden revolution of the spool at the beginning of the cast is what extends the rotor on the Airbrake and SV spools. The rotor and spool are static before the cast. As the spool starts up, the rotor resists the start-up rotation of the spool and instead rides up the ramp on the spool. This forces the rotor out way before the spool reaches maximum rpm's(unlike mag-z and mag-v rotors, which extend a little later after spool start-up).

Correct: This is the inertial effect although I'm not sure how much does it play

Not inertia, centrifugal force.

However, the extension of the rotor is purely centrifugal on all the moving inductor Magforce spools, and the retraction of the rotor is purely mechanical, accomplished by the spring once the centrifugal force lessens as the spool slows.

Incorrect: What keeps the inductor extended is the twisting of the rotor due to the braking generated by the interaction between the magnets and the inductor (Eddy current brake) and the ramp.