Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

[LowRange]

With SV spoola we know for a fact that the intensity of the magnetic field impacts when the inductor extends and it is not purely based on spool momentum or spool speed. The intensity if the magnetic field greatly impact when the inductor extends into the magnets. We can all verify this with an SV spool reel by flicking the spool at mag brake vs a lower setting. The re-seating of the inductor can clearly be heard even at spool flicking speeds. With the Ray's Studio DIY spools you can even see the inductor seat through the ported spool when flicked without line although the thin tapered inductor makes it more difficult to activate than say, an SS SV spool.

[LowRange]

I am really curious to see if Magforce Z is purely centrifugal in activation or if it is aided by the magnetic field like Air Brake. There is no easy way to tell. You would have to hack up a Magforce Z spool to make the inductor visible while spinning by either removing all or a portion of the spool wall on the inductor side of the spool then hold a dremel onto the non inductor side of the spool while the spool is pressed into the palming plate and brake cup. I might sacrifice a Tatula spool.

[aavery2]

The spinning is able to induce a magnetic field on non-magnetic metals like aluminum, in opposition to the one around the magnet. And the induced field has a strength proportional to the spinning speed. But for a corret induction, with precise braking and inductor activation, a stable spinning is a must-have, thats why zero-adjusting is so important.

Great explanation, the reverse magnetic field is often referred to as counter EMF or Eddie current. The variable braking action on the reel is the result of the centrifugal force exerted on the inductor. The faster the spool spins the more centrifugal force is created and forces the inductor deeper into the magnetic field - creating a higher counter EMF/braking. The other variable is the strength of the magnetic field which is variable in these types of fishing reels.

[jvelth74]

OK, obviously there's pulling forces between inductor and magnets. But HLC spring rate is almost 200 g in full compressed. I think magnetical pulling force is much weaker than 200 g and therefore it doesn't practically has effect to HLC spring and if it has effect to std. Magforce-Z inductor, this is small effect as well. I base this opinion that sv spool inductor spring rate to maximium copression is around 20 g, and still I consider torque/twisting in activation ramp creates main force that keeps sv inductor deep in magnetic field. It's possible that this my opinion is wrong and please keep on discuss.

Following is only calculation for centrifugal forces vs. spring rate:

So, only information of Magforce-Z is this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7duihHaBpI&t=34s
And in this case weakened spring start's to compress around 7000 rpm.

I think this weakened spring is around twice as weak as standard Magforce-Z spring.
And acc. to Daiwa (and acc. to my inaccurate measurements) Magforce-HLC is around 4 x stronger than standard Magforce-Z spring.
According to that standard Magforce-Z spring starts to compress around * 2^0,5 = * 1,4 speed, which is 9800 rpm.
And HLC spring starts to compress * 4^0,5 = * 2 speed, which is around around 19600 rpm.

In case of 36 mm spool, and line gap to spool edge 1 mm, diameter is 34 mm corresponding speed are something:
- Magforce-Z: 17 m/s (40 MPH)
- Magforce-HLC: 35 m/s (78 MPH)

Big inaccurancy of calculation is input, used spring rate in video is unknown and revolutions are inaccurate..
Probably spring in video is stronger than 2 x weaker than standard spring.. and speeds calculated above are lower.

Testing springs (this is not accurate):

sv brake / ct Alphas

magforce sv.JPG (36.36 KiB) Viewed 6837 times

Steez 103 r+ (I think this is approx same as std. Mag-Z)

Steez 103 r+ mag-Z.JPG (36.51 KiB) Viewed 6837 times

I'ze HLC 34 mm

I'ze HLC.JPG (33.64 KiB) Viewed 6837 times

HLC Spring

HLC.JPG (37.66 KiB) Viewed 6837 times

[adam lancia]

I have nothing of scientific or anecdotal evidence to add to this thread, but I'm following it because I ABSOLUTELY LOVE techie topics like this! Thanks to all of you for this, I'm really intrigued to see what comes of this discussion!

[aavery2]

OK, obviously there's pulling forces between inductor and magnets.

No this is not obvious to me, I actually disagree with this statement. Centrifugal force is the only force moving the inductor in my opinion. Braking is created by the counter-rotational force generated when the inductor enters the magnetic field - counter EMF. Counter EMF would be a repulsive force rather than an attractive force.

[jvelth74]

^ Really interesting. And because my understanding of electromagnetism is slim, I have to believe statement which sounds justified and reasonable.

Obviuous this is same also for sv / air brake? Magnets doesn't pull inductor. And if something happens, magnets push inductor back 'In'? ...And in the sv / air brake only force that keeps inductor 'Out' deep in magnetic field, is magnetic braking force, which brakes inductor, which creates torque in joint, which twists and pushes inductor 'Out'?

[aavery2]

^ Really interesting. And because my understanding of electromagnetism is slim, I have to believe statement which sounds justified and reasonable.

Obviuous this is same also for sv / air brake? Magnets doesn't pull inductor. And if something happens, magnets push inductor back 'In'? ...And in the sv / air brake only force that keeps inductor 'Out' deep in magnetic field, is magnetic braking force, which brakes inductor, which creates torque in joint, which twists and pushes inductor 'Out'?

I don't follow your logic entirely but let me see if I can explain another way that may help. The magnetic field from the magnets does not affect the inductor movement. The inductor is moved into the magnets by centrifugal force and out by spring force. The magnets generate a magnetic force that is rotational from the core to the pole. When you introduce the spinning inductor into the magnetic field the inductor generates a counter-rotational force (counter emf), the field rotates in the opposite direction as the magnetic field, this is what creates the braking effect. You can adjust the counter emf field by adjusting the strength of the magnetic field and/or increasing the rotational speed of the inductor which has the effect of pushing the inductor by centrifugal force further into the magnetic field. I hope it is clear as mud.

[jvelth74]

I don't follow your logic entirely but let me see if I can explain another way that may help. The magnetic field from the magnets does not affect the inductor movement. The inductor is moved into the magnets by centrifugal force and out by spring force. The magnets generate a magnetic force that is rotational from the core to the pole. When you introduce the spinning inductor into the magnetic field the inductor generates a counter-rotational force (counter emf), the field rotates in the opposite direction as the magnetic field, this is what creates the braking effect. You can adjust the counter emf field by adjusting the strength of the magnetic field and/or increasing the rotational speed of the inductor which has the effect of pushing the inductor by centrifugal force further into the magnetic field. I hope it is clear as mud.

Thanks! I'll read this 20x again and I think then I'll understand. English is not my mother language and I always have been in trouble in electrics and magnetism. (Boats and ships have always been much easier in my mind than electrics.)

[jvelth74]

Spinning rotor should be same as inductor cup.

And Air Brake should be same as sv brake (magnetical force controlled magnetic brake).

And Magforce-Z, - V and HLC are similar type (centrifugal controlled magnetic brake).

[LowRange]

OK, obviously there's pulling forces between inductor and magnets.

No this is not obvious to me, I actually disagree with this statement. Centrifugal force is the only force moving the inductor in my opinion. Braking is created by the counter-rotational force generated when the inductor enters the magnetic field - counter EMF. Counter EMF would be a repulsive force rather than an attractive force.

I would on expect attraction in the case of a magnetic inductor cup.

I am really curious to see if Magforce Z is purely centrifugal in activation or if it is aided by the magnetic field like Air Brake. There is no easy way to tell. You would have to hack up a Magforce Z spool to make the inductor visible while spinning by either removing all or a portion of the spool wall on the inductor side of the spool then hold a dremel onto the non inductor side of the spool while the spool is pressed into the palming plate and brake cup. I might sacrifice a Tatula spool.

What exactlys is the air braking system? I thought it as just a mag-z tuned for lighter spools, giving more light lure castability... For me is a very confusing concept since I didn't got what is the ''spinning rotor''. Is it the inductor cup???

It is similar to Magforce Z but makes use of a two ramp shaped peices to extend the inductor.

I wonder if angular momentum also adds to the extension of the inductor or even if it is the primary means of extending the inductor. Angular momentum will be a force vector in the same direction as the inductors linear movement as the spool rotates. If Magforce Z inductor extension is centrifugal then how does it produce linear movement on such a small space? The Magforce Z mechanism seems very simple

[jvelth74]

I don't follow your logic entirely but let me see if I can explain another way that may help. The magnetic field from the magnets does not affect the inductor movement. The inductor is moved into the magnets by centrifugal force and out by spring force. The magnets generate a magnetic force that is rotational from the core to the pole. When you introduce the spinning inductor into the magnetic field the inductor generates a counter-rotational force (counter emf), the field rotates in the opposite direction as the magnetic field, this is what creates the braking effect. You can adjust the counter emf field by adjusting the strength of the magnetic field and/or increasing the rotational speed of the inductor which has the effect of pushing the inductor by centrifugal force further into the magnetic field. I hope it is clear as mud.

Do you mean that magnetic forces in axial direction in Daiwa magnetic brakes are always zero?
And only magnetic force that appears in Daiwa magnetic brakes is braking torque (when inductor rotates in magnetic field)?

Thanks in advance,

[jvelth74]

If Magforce Z inductor extension is centrifugal then how does it produce linear movement on such a small space? The Magforce Z mechanism seems very simple

Mag-Z's centrifugal weights are on angled surface. Weights slides by this angled surface and same time those moves perpendicular to axial (I'm not correct depiction). Reaction force by this angled surface creates component forces and one component is axial and this force pushes inductor against spring force.

Mag-Z.JPG (22.2 KiB) Viewed 6869 times

Components of forces.JPG (28.87 KiB) Viewed 6866 times

[LowRange]

I saw that last night. The same site also had a Pixy spool extending and retracting the inductor at what looked to be much slower spool speeds than 7000 rpm. That is more consistent with what I hear from my Pixy Airy Red Spool. What spool is in that video you posted earlier. That thing only briefly extends and that dremel sounds like it is going pretty fast.

Pixy spool: https://youtu.be/IPYypRWchoI

[jvelth74]

^ That prototype(?) had much friction in inductor movement and move was edgy..

I think in Magforce-V weights are at least in bigger angle than Magforce-Z and therefore Magforce-V starts to move earlier than Magforce-Z.