Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

[jvelth74]

Do anybody know what's Magforce-Z's inductor activation revolutions?

Only information I could found was this:
By weakening spring by cutting it, inductor movement is happening around 7000 rpm's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7duihHaBpI

But do anybody know what's standard Magforce-Z spool revolution when:
a) Inductor starts to move from 'In' position?
b) inductor reaches it's 'Out' position?

I know that some calculations could be done, but parts are small and calculations wouldn't be accurate.
If I would have equipments to test it, I would test, but I don't have.
I believe that Daiwa has made some calculations and there is something design revolutions.

[LowRange]

Not sure. The strength of the magnetic field also has an impact. With Air Brake at least I can get the inductor to extent with a gentle flick of the spool on max brake.

Also I can hear the sound of my Airy Red spool's inductor seat into the spool with an audible "tink" sound at the end of a cast just before the bait hits the water.

[jvelth74]

Yep, sv brake / air brake is different type to activate and to work and different revolutions. Activation ramp and twisting inductor.

But standard Magforce-Z revolutions is my interest now.

Or actually Magforce-Z HLC, because I'm pretty sure that its doesn't move at all in slow casts.

But if anybody would have knowledge of Magforce-Z (or HLC) activation speeds..

Thanks

[Carlos Carrapiço]

Do anybody know what's Magforce-Z's inductor activation revolutions?

Only information I could found was this:
By weakening spring by cutting it, inductor movement is happening around 7000 rpm's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7duihHaBpI

But do aybody know what's standard Magforce-Z spool revolution when:
a) Inductor starts to move from 'In' position?
b) inductor reaches it's 'Out' position?

I know that some calculations could be done, but parts are small and calculations wouldn't be accurate.
If I would have equipments to test it, I would test, but I don't have.
I believe that Daiwa has made some calculations and there is something design revolutions.

How about attaching a spool to a Dremel? You can slowly increase the rpm and see when the inductor moves.

Didn’t try it but I guess the spool shaft end on the inductor side might be a snug fit into the Dremel head.

[LowRange]

On Magforce Z and V the activation is not purely centrifugal. I did see a video a while back of a guy that had put Daiwa spools onto dremel and it took ungodly speeds to get the inductor to extend.

EDIT: for those lurking this old thread I was wrong BTW. Keep reading. V and Z are purely centrifugal driven in rotor extension.

[Slazmo]

Will someone make a hydrodynamic brake / retarder one day? Could electrify it to modify the load to it. I know there's DC brakes but yeh just to be difficult / different...

[aavery2]

On Magforce Z and V the activation is not purely centrifugal. I did see a video a while back of a guy that had put Daiwa spools onto dremel and it took ungodly speeds to get the inductor to extend.

You say that you believe it is not purely centrifugal, I am interested in what the rest of your theory is.

[LowRange]

On Magforce Z and V the activation is not purely centrifugal. I did see a video a while back of a guy that had put Daiwa spools onto dremel and it took ungodly speeds to get the inductor to extend.

You say that you believe it is not purely centrifugal, I am interested in what the rest of your theory is.

That the interaction of the inductor and the magnetic field and the strength of the field also aids in it's extension. I know for a fact my inductors will extend on spools traveling at hundreds of RPM, not thousands.

[aavery2]

On Magforce Z and V the activation is not purely centrifugal. I did see a video a while back of a guy that had put Daiwa spools onto dremel and it took ungodly speeds to get the inductor to extend.

You say that you believe it is not purely centrifugal, I am interested in what the rest of your theory is.

That the interaction of the inductor and the magnetic field and the strength of the field also aids in it's extension. I know for a fact my inductors will extend on spools traveling at hundreds of RPM, not thousands.

Take a magnet and check your spool, you will soon see that there are no magnetic parts in its build.

[LowRange]

On Magforce Z and V the activation is not purely centrifugal. I did see a video a while back of a guy that had put Daiwa spools onto dremel and it took ungodly speeds to get the inductor to extend.

You say that you believe it is not purely centrifugal, I am interested in what the rest of your theory is.

That the interaction of the inductor and the magnetic field and the strength of the field also aids in it's extension. I know for a fact my inductors will extend on spools traveling at hundreds of RPM, not thousands.

Take a magnet and check your spool, you will soon see that there are no magnetic parts in its build.

The magnets are not aiding in extending the inductor by attracting the aluminum to the magnets but are helping to extend the Magforce Z inductor into the magnets through the lentz effect. How I'm not sure but I have reels that I can hear the inductor snap back against the spool and I can hear them them snap back later in the cast at higher magnetic settings than on low settings. The interaction of the inductor and magnetic field is having an impact on how long and at what speed the inductor stays extended into magnets. This is true of both SV and Magforce V. I don't have any Magforce Z spools that I can hear the inductor seat against the spool on a cast but I can't see how it is any different.

https://youtu.be/O9DaKP2PhL4

[aavery2]

I am familiar with Lentz's law, but I do not see it as a means of attracting non-magnetic material. Lentz's law to my understanding is a lot more about counter EMF and braking. My thoughts are that the inductor extends with centrifugal force alone.

[jvelth74]

I'm not professional of electromagnetism and I don't uderstand how magnetic brake works, but its something loop currents due Letz Law.

Anybody knows; does inductor induce electromagnetic field during operation? If so, then there should be some pulling force between magnets and electromagnetic field/inductor? But I think this force is small, if there is any pulling force, and therefore this might have some effect on magforce sv or Air, but no effect in Magforce-V / Magforce-Z / Magforce HLC.

Still activation revolutions of centrifugal adjusting Magforce-V / Magforce-Z / Magforce HLC is interesting me

My Dremel is such bad that I don't want to attach my spools to it and still I won't get accurate revolutions. If I would have proper lathe machine, I would try it.

Working principle of Mag-Z is following:

Mag-Z simplified.JPG (22.66 KiB) Viewed 10035 times

But actual it's more complex because of angled weights. And parts are hard to measure and therefore calculation of Mag-Z is not that easy or simple.

[Slazmo]

Anyone actually tested the inductor cup to see if its actually pure aluminium? It'll be some form of alloy that's a bit more responsive to the neodymium magnets are rare earth type.

If anyone remembers the Shimano Bantam reels of old ran magnets (on 2 hinged butterfly wings) but we're not that strong and worked on an aluminium plate too. My Bantam Crestfire as an example.

[LowRange]

Do we really have good understanding on how Magfoce Z and V work? The internal working are very different from a centrifugal brake. I'm not sure how it works an how the lentz effect would aid in extending the inductor. All I can offer is anecdotal evidence of how my reels behave and sound.

The magnetic field is inducing a current into the induction rotor (inductor) and there is a magnetic field produced from the current in the inductor. It is the interaction of these two magnetic fields that causes the braking in the spool.

With Air Brake is very clearly understood that increasing the intensity of the source magnetic field will cause the inductor to extend into the magnets at lower rpm than at low brake settings. I think it is plausible that Magforce Z operates similarly and that Air Brake is simply a different means to achieve the same end with a lighter weight mechanism.

[jvelth74]

For me Lentz Law is not clear, because I don't understand electromagnetism properly. But for baitcaster magnetic brakes it's enough, or fairly enough, to understand braking happens due to loop circuits because of Lentz Law

Sv / air brakes: It's twisting inductor with activation ramp and with weak spring:

- In the beginning of cast spool accelerates rapidly and inductor tries to follow spool but due to momentum of inertia of inductor it twists, and activation ramp extends inductor.

- When sv inductor extends to magnetic field, magnetic brake grows, and this magnetic brake tries to slow down inductor. And because inductor is fixed to spool via inductor ramp, there occurs torque in ramp and that keeps inductor twisted/extended until the point spool revolutions slow down enough and spring force wins force created by magnetic brake/torque in activation ramp. Maybe it's also possible that braking force grows that much, that spool 'reaches' inductor, when torque disappears, which also leads inductor to retract.

- But because sv spring is weak, and if there could occur pulling forces between inductor (or magnetic field created by it?) and magnets, in this case this can be measurable part of keeping inductor extended. But I think, we don't know is there such pulling forces. Braking forces are obvious (and torque between inductor ja spool, which is transfered via activation ramp).

Still I'm interested in activation revolutions in centrifugal controlled Daiwa magnetic brakes; Magforce-V, Magforce-Z or Magforce-HLC

This is good basics of magnetic brakes:
https://japantackle.com/tackle_topics/brake_system.htm