Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

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Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by CFDoc » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:03 pm

*******___________Important Message:_______**********
******* This is not a competition with a winner **********
*******____This is pure boredom, manifested__**********

This awful weather has got us Southerners prisoners in our own homes and being a caged animal is about to drive me crazy. So much so that I spent the past few days setting up an experiment to measure overall vibrations felt during reeling. You read that correctly. I was so bored that I figured out a way to slap accelerometers to bait casters so I could measure vibrations in various reels.

If the weather stays bad a few more days I will do some more reels. For now, all I've tested is a 2020 Metanium and a 2021 Zillion.

The Setup

To begin, I basically created some "soft constraints" by placing the reel in a lightly tightened vise with foam borders. This was to constrain the reel such that low frequency vibrations, like a human hand, would not be possible. But higher frequency vibrations from gearing, etc. would still show up on the accelerometer.

The accelerometer is just a basic witmotion 6-axis with bluetooth so I can just log the data on my iPhone while it runs. I used some 3M sticky stuff to attach it to the reels. I tried placing the accelerometer both to the top and palm side of the reels. The results didn't change (which is a good thing) so I ultimately just left it on top of the frames because it was easier to deal with.

Both reels are 7.1:1 gear ratios. Even though I was ultimately interested in the magnitude of the vibrations, I didn't want varying frequencies to throw off the look of the charts. So you will see the very consistent spikes in similar frequencies for both of these reels.

Even though the reels were in a vise, I did the reeling by hand. You will see from the data that I was pretty good at achieving a consistent ~2.5 Revolutions Per Second over 20-30 seconds of data logging. I tried some data at ~1 RPS, but the outcome didn't change and it was tougher to maintain 1 RPS than ~2.5 RPS.

The Output

I logged all the spatial dimensions (X, Y, Z) accelerations for about 25-30 seconds of reeling. In the coordinate system I chose, X would be side-to-side movement, Y is front-to-back movement, and Z is up-and-down movement. The plots below only show X and Z movement as the Y-direction movement was always minimal (order of magnitude less) when compared to the others.

The charts you will see are not actually raw accelerations over time. What you will see is the Discrete Fourier Transform algorithm applied to the raw acceleration data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_ ... _transform). The DFT representation helps make a clear statement about the messy raw acceleration data that would be almost impossible to digest otherwise.

There are two important aspects of a DFT plot. First is the various spikes at different frequencies. These spikes represent the main set of frequencies that are apparent in the overall accelerometer signal. Next is the amplitude of those main frequency spikes. Higher amplitudes represent a larger overall acceleration magnitude at the particular frequency of interest. So for example, if the chart has a spike at 2.5Hz with an amplitude of 0.2m/s^2, that is a consistent, repetitive, signal one could expect to feel while reeling.

For those that are already knowledgeable about this stuff, I FFT'd various 10 second windows of the data until I found the lowest RMS, most consistent, data to express.

The Data

Okay, so first up is the 2020 Metanium. Here is the plot.

Image

And here is the 2021 Zillion.

Image

The Analysis

First off, it's pretty cool to see the 5, almost identical, frequencies pop up for both reels. This was to be expected with the same gear ratios, but still cool nonetheless.

I'm not gonna get too wrapped up in a frequency analysis, but the spikes at 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, and 12.5Hz are signs of consistent reeling on my end plus the effects of gearing throughout the reel. Also, two reels with the same gear ratios are showing very similar reactions to reeling on a frequency spectrum.

The coolest part to me is the amplitude differences. If anybody has been keeping up with the Zillion mega-thread, I said in there the new Zillion was easily the smoothest reel I've ver felt. Well, I think I found some data to back that up. The reel transmits anywhere from 3-4 times less vibration to the frame than the Metanium does. It's just a smooth operator.

Now this also brings up an interesting topic of discussion regarding Magnesium frames. I've heard a lot of folks talk about sensitivity of Magnesium and being able to feel bites through the reel frame. I never really put a lot of faith in those arguments; however, after seeing this, I think it's plausible that a Magnesium frame could be responsible for transmitting vibrations due to bites into your hand.

Anyways, hope y'all found this interesting. I'd much rather just go fishing than do this, but here we are.

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by Slazmo » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:34 pm

So much for silent tune...

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by CFDoc » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:10 pm

These are accelerations/vibrations.

Not necessarily directly correlated with pressure fluctuations/sound.

I may do acoustics next lol

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by Dalleinf » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:40 pm

Interesting - I like it when people with imagination and intelligence get bored. Thanks.

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by i_am_R2 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:14 pm

Very cool stuff =D>

When I read the title of the post the first thing I thought about was aluminum vs. magnesium frames and its interesting to see the data shows magnesium can actually/potentially transmit more vibration. I guess it can argued that the gears themselves may be giving off more or less vibration but I have experienced "feeling" bites pretty clearly through reels myself (especially through the stems of magnesium spinning reels).

Its cool to see some actual science/data behind that theory.

Again, awesome test and very cool info. Thanks for sharing! =D> =D>

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by rto » Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:25 pm

Excellent stuff Doc! Love it.

I understand that you're not looking to do this here, but It will be difficult to ascribe differences in measured data simply to different frame materials, or gearing profile, etc. Too difficult to isolate with a wide range of variables including the 3 pc uncoupled frame of the Zillion vs the Metanuims's monocoque construction, and on and on. Besides being magnesium it's understandable why the Metanium's frame might amplify and sustain peaks at different/certain frequencies. The main thing here is that you've proven that you aren't imagining a difference between the two. It's real! The why's may not be easy to pinpoint with certainty. Maybe you can get Daiwa and Shimano to provide you with an aluminum Met B and a Mag Zillion 1000 in the name of science? Short of that I'm looking forward to the next installment!

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by y2k88 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:26 am

Love it!

Would you say both reels have had about the same amount of use/ potential for line slap if spooled/ etc.?
I'm still getting a Metanium for the MGL spool haha.

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by CFDoc » Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:31 am

rto wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:25 pm
Excellent stuff Doc! Love it.

I understand that you're not looking to do this here, but It will be difficult to ascribe differences in measured data simply to different frame materials, or gearing profile, etc. Too difficult to isolate with a wide range of variables including the 3 pc uncoupled frame of the Zillion vs the Metanuims's monocoque construction, and on and on. Besides being magnesium it's understandable why the Metanium's frame might amplify and sustain peaks at different/certain frequencies. The main thing here is that you've proven that you aren't imagining a difference between the two. It's real! The why's may not be easy to pinpoint with certainty. Maybe you can get Daiwa and Shimano to provide you with an aluminum Met B and a Mag Zillion 1000 in the name of science? Short of that I'm looking forward to the next installment!
Yeah I 100% agree that the real difference in vibration transmission between the two is impossible to know for sure. And I’ll admit that I don’t know enough about the intrinsic properties of aluminum vs magnesium to even state whether or not the overall theory is true.

Tomorrow is another day of well below freezing temperatures and a shut down infrastructure, so we’ll see what happens. The idea of sound/oscilloscope measuring sounds interesting too.

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by CFDoc » Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:40 am

y2k88 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:26 am
Love it!

Would you say both reels have had about the same amount of use/ potential for line slap if spooled/ etc.?
I'm still getting a Metanium for the MGL spool haha.

The Metanium easily has a lot more use than the Zillion.


I bought all my Mets from about February through May of 2020. This particular one is a JDM model that I would have ordered in February. FWIW, I sent all of my Mets off to Dan Isaac for deep cleaning in early February of 2021. So the Met was good and oiled/greased.

I bought all of my Zillions in January 2021. They have all had considerably less usage than the Mets.

I wouldn’t use this information to say one reel is worse/better than the other. And you will not regret buying a Met. They’re fantastic reels.

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by zalan » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:42 am

It was an interesting read, thanks for posting!

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by rando » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:34 am

Very very cool.

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by MCROUT14 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:52 am

THIS! I've been wanting to do a test similar to this as I also was skeptical about the whole "magnesium body transmitting more vibrations"- I was also curious about the one-piece frame that Shimano offers as they claim it should increase sensitivity. I have been having trouble detecting slack line bites, or bites where they hit it and swim at you, with a certain technique and, have been up in the air about which reel to get. Might have to go with new Met after seeing this data :-k

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by CFDoc » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:43 am

So quick update on trying to capture sound waves.

It's not really going like I thought. I'll list my issues so far and if anybody has any (cheap, easy) ideas to fix them, I'm all ears.

Basically, I downloaded some oscilloscope apps for my iPhone that just use the internal microphone to log dB values over time. I was going to do the same thing as the vibration study where I just reeled for 20-30 seconds and then see what the FFT's said.

So the first problem I've noticed is the I can't get a consistent signal to show up on the FFT's that would signify the reel noise over the regular ambient noise.

For the accelerometer data, I was pretty confident in the results because the data was repeatable over and over again even after changing things like vise grip pressure, reel constraint positions, location of the accelerometer, etc. Well, the oscilloscope FFT's are first of all, not showing any major spikes at consistent frequencies, and second of all the peak values are changing at seemingly random intervals of time. It's almost like the reel noise isn't changing the overall pattern of sound waves generated by the air around it.

My guess is either iPhone microphones are appropriate for this study, or I need to somehow create a dead silent room.

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by pbird » Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:44 am

I don't own a Zillion and am a Shimano homer, but this data further builds on my hypothesis of real construction/material and sensitivity. My magnesium reels are more sensitive than the Ci4 (plastic) reels and it is noticeable. I will go on to say that the new Bantam is that much more sensitive to me than the new Metanium.

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Re: Vibration analysis between '20 Met and '21 Zillion

Post by mark poulson » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:39 am

CFDoc wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:03 pm
*******___________Important Message:_______**********
******* This is not a competition with a winner **********
*******____This is pure boredom, manifested__**********

This awful weather has got us Southerners prisoners in our own homes and being a caged animal is about to drive me crazy. So much so that I spent the past few days setting up an experiment to measure overall vibrations felt during reeling. You read that correctly. I was so bored that I figured out a way to slap accelerometers to bait casters so I could measure vibrations in various reels.

If the weather stays bad a few more days I will do some more reels. For now, all I've tested is a 2020 Metanium and a 2021 Zillion.

The Setup

To begin, I basically created some "soft constraints" by placing the reel in a lightly tightened vise with foam borders. This was to constrain the reel such that low frequency vibrations, like a human hand, would not be possible. But higher frequency vibrations from gearing, etc. would still show up on the accelerometer.

The accelerometer is just a basic witmotion 6-axis with bluetooth so I can just log the data on my iPhone while it runs. I used some 3M sticky stuff to attach it to the reels. I tried placing the accelerometer both to the top and palm side of the reels. The results didn't change (which is a good thing) so I ultimately just left it on top of the frames because it was easier to deal with.

Both reels are 7.1:1 gear ratios. Even though I was ultimately interested in the magnitude of the vibrations, I didn't want varying frequencies to throw off the look of the charts. So you will see the very consistent spikes in similar frequencies for both of these reels.

Even though the reels were in a vise, I did the reeling by hand. You will see from the data that I was pretty good at achieving a consistent ~2.5 Revolutions Per Second over 20-30 seconds of data logging. I tried some data at ~1 RPS, but the outcome didn't change and it was tougher to maintain 1 RPS than ~2.5 RPS.

The Output

I logged all the spatial dimensions (X, Y, Z) accelerations for about 25-30 seconds of reeling. In the coordinate system I chose, X would be side-to-side movement, Y is front-to-back movement, and Z is up-and-down movement. The plots below only show X and Z movement as the Y-direction movement was always minimal (order of magnitude less) when compared to the others.

The charts you will see are not actually raw accelerations over time. What you will see is the Discrete Fourier Transform algorithm applied to the raw acceleration data (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_ ... _transform). The DFT representation helps make a clear statement about the messy raw acceleration data that would be almost impossible to digest otherwise.

There are two important aspects of a DFT plot. First is the various spikes at different frequencies. These spikes represent the main set of frequencies that are apparent in the overall accelerometer signal. Next is the amplitude of those main frequency spikes. Higher amplitudes represent a larger overall acceleration magnitude at the particular frequency of interest. So for example, if the chart has a spike at 2.5Hz with an amplitude of 0.2m/s^2, that is a consistent, repetitive, signal one could expect to feel while reeling.

For those that are already knowledgeable about this stuff, I FFT'd various 10 second windows of the data until I found the lowest RMS, most consistent, data to express.

The Data

Okay, so first up is the 2020 Metanium. Here is the plot.

Image

And here is the 2021 Zillion.

Image

The Analysis

First off, it's pretty cool to see the 5, almost identical, frequencies pop up for both reels. This was to be expected with the same gear ratios, but still cool nonetheless.

I'm not gonna get too wrapped up in a frequency analysis, but the spikes at 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, and 12.5Hz are signs of consistent reeling on my end plus the effects of gearing throughout the reel. Also, two reels with the same gear ratios are showing very similar reactions to reeling on a frequency spectrum.

The coolest part to me is the amplitude differences. If anybody has been keeping up with the Zillion mega-thread, I said in there the new Zillion was easily the smoothest reel I've ver felt. Well, I think I found some data to back that up. The reel transmits anywhere from 3-4 times less vibration to the frame than the Metanium does. It's just a smooth operator.

Now this also brings up an interesting topic of discussion regarding Magnesium frames. I've heard a lot of folks talk about sensitivity of Magnesium and being able to feel bites through the reel frame. I never really put a lot of faith in those arguments; however, after seeing this, I think it's plausible that a Magnesium frame could be responsible for transmitting vibrations due to bites into your hand.

Anyways, hope y'all found this interesting. I'd much rather just go fishing than do this, but here we are.
I just love it when you talk dirty! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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