Sensitivity - my test of 1 vs 2 piece

[ultralight]

Just a quick FYI datapoint on 1 vs 2 piece sensitivity.

Data:
1. Identical high modulus material from one high end manufacturer (not from China - though Chinese manufacturers are now doing very good work.)
2. One piece vs two piece. For the two piece, I had two methods. One is a made in the factory two piece that is made to be an identical counterpart of the 1 piece. Another is one piece that I cut in half and joined as a two piece rod. The taper match at the joint so it is a perfect fit. This removes any of the factory 2 piece's difference in taper, power and action as a factor.
3. All joint styles are ferrule over blank, and not spigot.
4. All blanks are ultralight in power, and fast action.
5. No appreciable weight difference in the 2 piece that I made compared to the 1 piece. The factory 2 piece a few percentage point heavier due to their taper change and is actually slightly more powerful which should make it more sensitive, if all things were equal.

Caveats:
The 1 and 2 piece blanks or rods (I tested both - blank and built) are not exactly identical in the following manner.
1. The factory 2 piece is a few inches longer than the 1 piece.
2. The made by me 2 piece has slightly heavier finish on the blank. I do not think this makes a huge difference but want to note this for precision.
3. I can't tell if the conclusion would be different if I have a spigot joint.
4. This is a small sample size though I have been careful to make things as close to equal as possible for my conclusion to be valid by using very high performance blanks.

Conclusion:
While the two piece are very sensitive, the one piece blanks are clearly more sensitive. The difference is clearly detectible. I believe that in real fishing situation, it will make a difference on the subtle bites.

Personally, I am very surprised by the results. I had always thought the difference, if any, would be minimal and perhaps not detectible. I believe that Loomis makes some of their GLX trout rods in one and two pieces. If anyone owns two identical length and power Loomis rods with the difference only in 1 and 2 piece, it would be interesting to see if my findings are repeatable.

[Bronzeye]

How did you cut a blank in half and rejoin the two halves without using a spigot?

[ultralight]

Ancient Chinese secret...



Kidding aside, I used TWO blanks and cut them at different points so that there is overlap. In essence, sacrificing one of the two 1 piece blanks. However, I can use the reminder pieces in the future for shorter or longer 2 piece blanks if I cut more though I don't plan to do that....

[uljersey]

I have no issue with any modern era 2 piece spigot type rods and I own quite a few among different manufacturers. IMO the degree of sensitivity is more in the hands of a particular angler than the rod itself ... not saying one rod can't be more sensitive than another, I just think there's more to the equation than the rod itself.

[earthworm77]

I have no issue with any modern era 2 piece spigot type rods and I own quite a few among different manufacturers. IMO the degree of sensitivity is more in the hands of a particular angler than the rod itself ... not saying one rod can't be more sensitive than another, I just think there's more to the equation than the rod itself.

I agree with you on this. I used to abhor 2pc rods. These days all the new rods I buy are 2pc rods that seem just as sensitive at the 1pc rods I am using.

[poisonokie]

Makes sense. I mean, just from a physical standpoint that would almost have to be the case. Regardless of the ferrule type, the fibers aren't bonded together, so there's no way they transmit vibration as well. That said, I can't tell a difference with the 3 pc rods I have. The have spigot ferrules and feel surprisingly sensitive to me. Surprising because I wouldn't expect them to be sensitive at all. If I had an otherwise identical rod to try I would expect to feel a difference.

[ultralight]

Great to see all these discussions.

Just to be clear, I have ZERO ego tied up in this. I would rather be proven wrong and learn something - totally fine with that. These discussions are enjoyable intellectual pursuits for me, but they are not about stuff that is eternal that really matters. So I am not personally invested in this at the level of emotional commitment. (Just as I don't understand why people are brand loyal.... as these are just temporal inanimate stuff.) So please free to express your opinions. Love em.

That said, I also thought that there was not much difference in sensitivity as the 2 piece rods I have are very sensitive. But I will say that the difference I am feeling with these specific samples is not subtle. My commitment and preference are for no difference but the 'data' from these samples convinced me otherwise - again, just with specific samples. So my point is not that two piece rods cannot be very sensitive. Many are. It is just that I am persuaded that all things equal, a 1 piece rod is MORE sensitive and a very sensitive 2 piece rod.

It could be that my experience is an outlier but until I experience an actual counter example, that's the persuasion. At least we know that there is no logical reason why a 2 piece will be more sensitive than a 1 piece - but the reverse is not true so if sensitivity is paramount, perhaps a 1 piece is indicated.

In other words:
1. 2 piece can be VERY sensitive.
2. But being 'VERY sensitive' is not the same as being AS sensitive as a 1 piece.
3. The only way to really tell is to test both blanks or rods made to be matched side by side.

That said, the convenience of a 2 piece for transport is a huge advantage for most. And I do have a very soft tip 3 wt 3 piece fly rod that I made into a spin - and for bait fishing, the tip is absolutely amazing for watching subtle bites. So that is a very sensitive rod - but less due to physical feel and more due to visual detection.

[Craigthor]

Quick question is your 2 piece test point just an overlap of blanks (sleeve over ferrule design)? If so, that will create a tiny flat spot in the parabolic bend that is nearly eliminated with newer high quality Spigot Ferrule designs. I think this is the biggest change is rods used to use sleeve over designs and with that layout I would truly agree a one piece feels different. With newer designs I’m not sure I could tell but would want to have identical rods from a single manufacturer both in a one piece and two piece for evaluation.

Definitely some good discussion going on.

[Alphahawk]

With the advent of the spigot ferrule this discussion rarely comes up. I have owned several high end US domestic market UL rods that were 1 piece and they did not measure up in sensitivity to even a medium end Major Craft 2 piece ajing rod. While there are some 1 piece JDM UL rods the majority of those are short rods. If a 1 piece is more sensitive why would the Japanese not make more of them for UL angling. That’s a question only they can answer. Until I started my research on my latest acquisition out of Japan......2018 Corto........I had never heard or read of a way to test sensitivity of a rod in the technical sense. This makes for an interesting read. It’s does not address the issue we are discussing but it seems Olympic tests their rods. Check this read about their OSS.



Regards


http://www.olympic-co-ltd.jp/fishing/ma ... echnology/

[Bronzeye]

...So please free to express your opinions. Love em.

It could be that my experience is an outlier but until I experience an actual counter example, that's the persuasion. At least we know that there is no logical reason why a 2 piece will be more sensitive than a 1 piece - but the reverse is not true...

Premise 1: The greater the mass of a given material through which vibrations must travel, the more they will be diminished.
Premise 2: Some 2-piece rods have less total blank mass than their one-piece counterparts.
Conclusion: At least in such rods, the 2-piece version could be more sensitive.

Evidence for Premise 2, from St. Croix's website The 2-piece versions of these spinning rods weigh .1 oz. less than 1-pc:
[*]Avid 60 ULF, 70MLF
[*]LE 66MLF, 70MF, 70MHF
(Most of the 2-piece spinning rods in these series weigh the same as the 1-piece versions; a few outweigh the 1-piece.)

I used to be baffled by this, wondering how a rod with an overlapped joint could weigh less than, or the same as, one without it. Then I looked at two-piece rods of mine and noticed that they tend to have thinner butt sections than the one-piece rods with similar tip actions. I realized that in order to maintain a continuously progressive bend under load, the one-piece rods have to keep increasing in diameter to at least the reel seat area. In two-piece rods, there is a more rapid swelling of the diameter as one moves from the tip to the joint, but then a reset to a smaller diameter in the butt section (which must slide into the tip section). So the presumption that one-piece rods must be more sensitive appears to be (if I may) re-buttable.

In most of the Avid and LE spin rods, the result is a wash in terms of total blank mass--the one-piece and two-piece end up weighing the same. So the theoretical issue in comparing vibration transfer seems to me to be this: Is vibration transfer more attenuated through a tightly fitting overlap of rod-making materials than it is through a greater distribution of those materials between that point and the sensing hand?

If carbon fibers were like steel pipe, one might expect better vibration transmission if all the fibers ran continuously from tip to butt. But rods aren't steel pipe; new fibers are added as one proceeds tip to butt, and some of that is cross-woven scrim and sometimes hoop wrapping; most such added materials don't run butt to tip. All of that is bonded together with resin. To me, it is not intuitively obvious that the one-piece rod should be more sensitive than the two-piece, especially in the cases where the two-piece version ends up with less total blank mass.

I agree that the proof is in the pudding, though it may be that no general rule is possible, even regarding rods within the same series of the same manufacturer.

[Craigthor]

http://www.olympic-co-ltd.jp/fishing/ma ... echnology/

That’s a bad site to start perusing...

[Alphahawk]

http://www.olympic-co-ltd.jp/fishing/ma ... echnology/

That’s a bad site to start perusing...

Oh yes......I’m already eyeing the 2018 Super Finezza.

Regards

[Craigthor]

http://www.olympic-co-ltd.jp/fishing/ma ... echnology/

That’s a bad site to start perusing...

Oh yes......I’m already eyeing the 2018 Super Finezza.

Regards

I’m buying a ‘18 Corto 6’10” and putting my 18’ Exist FC LT1000-S-P and Sunline Small Game PE.4 on it for spooning. The Nuovo Corto Prototype looks nice as well though quite a bit more.

[Alphahawk]

http://www.olympic-co-ltd.jp/fishing/ma ... echnology/

That’s a bad site to start perusing...

Oh yes......I’m already eyeing the 2018 Super Finezza.

Regards

I’m buying a ‘18 Corto 6’10” and putting my 18’ Exist FC LT1000-S-P and Sunline Small Game PE.4 on it for spooning. The Nuovo Corto Prototype looks nice as well though quite a bit more.

Congrats......I’m yet to make the move to a flagship reel. It will be the Daiwa Exist. I have been concentrating.....and spending.....on rods.

Regards

[Craigthor]

http://www.olympic-co-ltd.jp/fishing/ma ... echnology/

That’s a bad site to start perusing...

Oh yes......I’m already eyeing the 2018 Super Finezza.

Regards

I’m buying a ‘18 Corto 6’10” and putting my 18’ Exist FC LT1000-S-P and Sunline Small Game PE.4 on it for spooning. The Nuovo Corto Prototype looks nice as well though quite a bit more.

Congrats......I’m yet to make the move to a flagship reel. It will be the Daiwa Exist. I have been concentrating.....and spending.....on rods.

Regards

Only thing I can say is once you make the jump its hard to handle anything else. If it wasn’t for this forum, your YouTube review and Ultralights post on the 6’10” I’d have never seen it. Depending on how I like it my TenRyu Rayz Spectra may make its’ way up for sale to fund another rod.