Nano resin - from the 2011 Custom Rod Expo

[btune]

We attended the rod expo this past weekend also and I though I would share a couple of items that were discussed.
First I last went in 2008 and just like the state fairs used to be it was bigger and better this time. No so much in what was for sale (and you would not believe how much stuff there was) but for the new ideas and methods of doing things I saw. Even us old dogs can learn some new tricks!
Here is what I think is the most important and probably controversial new product out there. The new 3M nano resin! I will not get into how it works unless someone wants to hear about it but there is a good explanation on the St Croix website. It is worth a read! 3M is pretty tight lipped about it but the guys at St Croix believe in it enough that all their SCV blanks are using it. Jason convinced me and I have 3 of those headed my way!
So what is the problem? Well seems not all the results have been so great. St Croix reports a 30% or more increase in compression strength on the new blanks with a very small weight increase. Some have tested at 100% increase in strength. But, there have also been some inconsistent results with blanks delaminating which could actually be dangerous if you ran your hand over the exposed carbon fibers. The interesting part is that the blank has increased strength without changing the power or the action.
Biggest thing I learned is how much more stuff I need! All those neat toys.

[RGMatt]

is that 610MXF one of them? I should have that blank delivered tomorrow!!!

BTW I just got off the phone w/ a SC CS rep., he couldn't believe I wanted to change from the xtreme to the elite on a broken rod I sent in. I said recoils. He said the elite doesn't have the SCVI graphite in the butt sections and that the elite and the xtreme blanks are not of the same level. Well not according to the SC website!! He also said the 68MXF is not the same taper as the new 610MXF. We'll see.

[Tokugawa]

I can tell you why the results are inconsistent: non-homogeneity in the dispersion process!! A manufacturing company that is a client of mine has tested the 3M resin and has found that it is very inconsistent. For a fishing rod, it probably is not a big deal if a few break...for some other products it is a deal breaker.

Trust me - a carbon fiber splinter SUCKS!!!

[Mattman]

is that 610MXF one of them?

That's all they're making now.

My Croix blanks come directly from the plant. My last blank 5S69MLXF-B arrived a week or two ago. Had the NSI logo on the tag and the sticker on the blank.

He said the elite doesn't have the SCVI graphite in the butt sections and that the elite and the xtreme blanks are not of the same level.

???

He also said the 68MXF is not the same taper as the new 610MXF.

Double ???



I guess I have pretty good info to the contrary on both accounts.

[Drewbass]

Can someone clarify the differences or supposed differences of the St. Croix blanks. I'm confused. I thought the legend Elite and Legend Extreme were the same blank. Do they both now use the nano silca resin? What about the older blanks that have been on the shelf for the past year are they made with the nano resin? I just purchased a 5C70MHF-B from Mudhole. Is it going to be SCV and SCVI material with the Nano resin?

[Mattman]

I thought the legend Elite and Legend Extreme were the same blank. Do they both now use the nano silca resin?

They are. They do.

What about the older blanks that have been on the shelf for the past year are they made with the nano resin?

I believe they started using it before the official announcement, but you really don't have a way of knowing when that happened or what you've got.

I just purchased a 5C70MHF-B from Mudhole. Is it going to be SCV and SCVI material with the Nano resin?

You'd have to ask them. If they had a good inventory of old stock, they may be pushing that along. Its also possible that St. Croix had their suppliers deplete their inventory before the change so that when the new blanks were available, everyone got them.

NSI will be right on the bag tag and label. If its not, you have a 2010 model.

[Drewbass]

Thanks Matt.

[btune]

Some stuff I gleaned from Jason at the show:
1. He and St Croix are sold on the new resin.
2. ALL SCV blanks use the nano resin - this means all Extreme and Elite rods too. They use little of the SCVI material.
3. There are other rod companies that claim "nano" this or that but if they use the 3M stuff they will HAVE to say they use it. Part of the contract signed with 3M.
4. 3M is pretty tight lipped about this but there are many possible apps.
I also spent much time looking at the new blanks (OK drooling might be better). I directly compared the 610 to the ML blank and the 610 is a medium power for sure. Jason even commented that it was mislabeled. I have ordered two and that cleaned Mudhole out for now. Here is another thing to consider there are two 610XF blanks, one "spinning" and one "casting". The casting has more butt but the spinning seems to have plenty to me. I think they hit it on the head for shaky head and similar fishing. Not sure how I will like the XF action and they seem to be in the first 9-12 inches of the tip so true extra fast! One thing to consider about the new resins is that there is little or no down side. They should be at least as strong as prior blanks and most much stronger. As this stuff becomes the norm I can see "adjustments" allowing better blanks for us to play with! Oh and just a though the rod blank makers use a higher tolerances rate than the aero space business (2-3% vs. 5%)!

[Tokugawa]

Oh and just a though the rod blank makers use a higher tolerances rate than the aero space business (2-3% vs. 5%)!

Tolerance for what? Dimensional tolerances? Fiber volume tolerance?

The rod guys always like to crawl on the back of aerospace, but there is really no comparison.

[Drewbass]

Supposedly Shimano is also using the 3M Nano Silica resin in their NRX rods. Is there any truth to this?

Some stuff I gleaned from Jason at the show:
1. He and St Croix are sold on the new resin.
2. ALL SCV blanks use the nano resin - this means all Extreme and Elite rods too. They use little of the SCVI material.
3. There are other rod companies that claim "nano" this or that but if they use the 3M stuff they will HAVE to say they use it. Part of the contract signed with 3M.
4. 3M is pretty tight lipped about this but there are many possible apps.
I also spent much time looking at the new blanks (OK drooling might be better). I directly compared the 610 to the ML blank and the 610 is a medium power for sure. Jason even commented that it was mislabeled. I have ordered two and that cleaned Mudhole out for now. Here is another thing to consider there are two 610XF blanks, one "spinning" and one "casting". The casting has more butt but the spinning seems to have plenty to me. I think they hit it on the head for shaky head and similar fishing. Not sure how I will like the XF action and they seem to be in the first 9-12 inches of the tip so true extra fast! One thing to consider about the new resins is that there is little or no down side. They should be at least as strong as prior blanks and most much stronger. As this stuff becomes the norm I can see "adjustments" allowing better blanks for us to play with! Oh and just a though the rod blank makers use a higher tolerances rate than the aero space business (2-3% vs. 5%)!

[Tokugawa]

Supposedly Shimano is also using the 3M Nano Silica resin in their NRX rods. Is there any truth to this?

Yes - it is the same resin.

[btune]

The % numbers were from Jason and I assume he means their blanks are +- 2-3% from standard. I did not ask what exactly he was referring to.

3M is the main player in this and yes there are issues but the potential is there.

The guys at the North Fork (Gary Loomis new company) tested it and got 100% greater strength on their first batch but were NOT able to get the same results on other batches. So yes the consistency issue is there. It is not just the resin but the carbon used that can make a difference. My point is that I was told years ago that the next breakthrough would be in a resin system. Is this it, time will tell? That is why I will give it a shot and even if it does not work out I think St Croix will stand behind their stuff. By the way both the SCV and SCIV use the same fiber but with different resin systems. Shimano - Loomis says the key was finding the "right" fiber which of course they have!

[RGMatt]

sorry if my post confused anyone. The guy I spoke w/ obviously didn't know much. When he said I wanted a lesser blank in the elite. I said aren't they the same blank? He then went on about how the xtremes are SCVI and the elites are SCV blah, blah, blah. He insisted they were different. I did not believe most of what he was saying to be true. I was actually very surprised at this b/c any SC CS reps I've spoken w/ in the past have seemed knowledgeable about the products.

I got the S610MXF delivered this afternoon. Most defineatly a Med. powered rod. Tons of backbone. I also got a 5S66MLF, both from mudhole, and it also had the NSI labeling.

[RGMatt]

is that 610MXF one of them?

That's all they're making now.

My Croix blanks come directly from the plant. My last blank 5S69MLXF-B arrived a week or two ago. Had the NSI logo on the tag and the sticker on the blank.


.

I actually just meant if Btune picked up that blank. I remember in the thread right before the board went down, he was pretty interested in that blank.

[btune]

Yes I spent several minutes with a S610 comparing it to the ML and others. I ordered 2 of the spin models! I do not have a lot of experience with the extra fast action so I am looking forward to getting one in my hands! I do use a Loomis 811 for shaky heads so the comparison will be interesting. We fish a lot of plastics on various lead heads so this should fill the slot for 8-10 pound line with 5/16 down to 1/8 lead heads. Hands on sold me 3M resin or not.