Some general questions on rod bulding

BucketHunter · Post by **BucketHunter** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:24 pm

I will be ordering from Canada, so the shipping makes my venture into rod building a little more expensive than for some.
That being the case, I feel the need to get as much out of my customs as possible on the build quality front. Balance is a big, BIG thing for me, especially with tech spec rods, and long rods. In my mind, this means tinkering with the location of the reel seat, toggling between full/split grip, taping up guides etc to find ideal balance.
As well, taping in different sized of guides on a spinning rod to achieve optimal choke, casting distance, etc.
Because there are so many variables, I have no way of knowing what sizes of certain components to order ahead of time. Ie winding checks, guides, etc.
Is the only way to have complete freedom, to build up some supply stock ahead of time?, as in ordering one bigger and smaller on static sized items I think I need, and so on?
I have heard that butt weighting rods compromises sensitivity, and although not always a huge priority in certain tech spec rods, I would like to avoid making any compromises at all.
Long story short, I am going to do this full out, and refuse to take any short cuts. What are my options?
I would also appreciate any advice/heads up you can give me, stuff you learned the hard way the first time around etc.
Thanks!

Mattman · Post by **Mattman** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:55 am

BucketHunter wrote: Because there are so many variables, I have no way of knowing what sizes of certain components to order ahead of time. Ie winding checks, guides, etc.

Correct. Its always been best to order my components after I have the blank. I don’t trust vendors to size how I want to size. And often times I can’t say where the seat is going to go because I haven’t played with the setup enough. I’m not sure how long my grips are going to be because I don’t know where the seat is going. I can’t size for checks until I figure out the seats/grips. Etc…

BucketHunter wrote: Is the only way to have complete freedom, to build up some supply stock ahead of time?, as in ordering one bigger and smaller on static sized items I think I need, and so on?

Yes. I had a minimum of 1 size of every ECS so that I can make sure I size the seat just the way I want. I had a full set of Alconite guides so that I can play with sizing based on the configuration I wanted to go with and do test casting, and then when I was settled I could then order the appropriate sized titanium SiCs.

BucketHunter wrote: I have heard that butt weighting rods compromises sensitivity, and although not always a huge priority in certain tech spec rods, I would like to avoid making any compromises at all.

Weight is bad. But if you have to have weight, keep it behind the seat. When weight is ahead of the seat, it dampens sensitivity. When its behind the seat, it has very minimal impact, if any at all.

Many will argue that a balanced rod is a more sensitive rod.

Personally, I don’t balance my rods with weight. I do what I can with geometry and then build light.

BucketHunter wrote: Long story short, I am going to do this full out, and refuse to take any short cuts. What are my options?

Be prepared to spend money, build inventory, and have wait time. Find one or two suppliers that can take care of you well. Even if they don’t stock everything you want. Good customer service is key, not huge inventories.

jimmyb · Post by **jimmyb** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:25 am

people get too hung up on rod balance. Most of the people have fished with factory rods that weight 8+ oz and adding 2 more oz to the butt makes it feel better. They get everything to balance perfectly with their reel... THEN they go fishing and at a little 1/4 oz weight to the end of their line and GUESS WHAT??? their perfectly balanced rod is now very tip heavy. So, unless you like really long handles, fish with rods less than 5', or like adding a LOT of weight to a butt of a rod, or fish with complete slack in your line, you are not going to get a rod to balance when it is rigged with a lure (ready to fish). The key to a good feeling rod is a high quality, LIGHTWEIGHT blank, that is built as light as possible, as Matt already stated. IF you must add weight to a good custom that is built lightweight, then at least you wont have to add as much!

To the rest of your points, Matt is pretty much right on. I am stuck doing all my building by mail order as well. Buy the blanks, measure, then order components. Have a complete build list of the components you want for a rod, especially when ordering components for multiple blanks otherwise you will miss things. Once missed item will cause another few weeks to get your order!

Have you built before?

BucketHunter · Post by **BucketHunter** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:02 am

No I haven't built before, I've done some repair/refurb lately, and have enjoyed it alot. I've always been the kind to get into the tech portion of a hobby, for instance I built and tuned golf cubs, and also built myself custom drums as well.

I like the idea of having a couple of cheap sets of guides to gap and size out your wrap, that is a great idea.

I don't think balance is overrated at all, especially on longer, heavier rods. I can fish a $100 6'6" M all day with no issue.
But when it comes to a fipping stick, I will glady pay more than twice that for some weight saving and built quality.
When a rod tip is neutral to me, it is easier to affect motion, and thus easier for the fish to affect motion as well. This to me allows me comfort, and sensitivity. Of course the balance can be tuned for each presentation and expected hand and rod position. IE slighty tip heavy for hard pulling crank baits. Tip light for a pitching stick etc. This is why custom really appeals to me. I agree though, the lighter the package, the better balanced it usually is.

So an ideal ordering strategy might be to order 2-3 blanks at a time for future builds, then play with them until you figure out what you want?

BucketHunter · Post by **BucketHunter** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:04 am

Almost forgot. Would building a split grip rod be a little more modular, in that I have some freedom in sliding the seat toward or away from the butt to achieve balance, unlike having a set length on your cork grip?

BucketHunter · Post by **BucketHunter** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:32 pm

thoughts on tennessee grips, and also cork ring building for grips? both would allow me to be more flexible when build time comes.

Snyder Rods · Post by **Snyder Rods** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:59 pm

Mattman wrote:

BucketHunter wrote: I have heard that butt weighting rods compromises sensitivity, and although not always a huge priority in certain tech spec rods, I would like to avoid making any compromises at all.
Weight is bad. But if you have to have weight, keep it behind the seat. When weight is ahead of the seat, it dampens sensitivity. When its behind the seat, it has very minimal impact, if any at all.

- Weight can effect sensitivity anywhere on the rod, including the butt - it will effect the entire rod to some degree... and on some builds, it can really kill the sensitivity. Others builds, it might not be noticeable. But it is true that the closer the weight is to the tip, the more effect it will have.

A better way to balance a spinning rod for slow, tip up techniques is to build so that the reel seat is closer to the butt so that the reel becomes the balancer. After the cast, simply re-grip in front of the reel. I do this on spinning worm rods, the butt grip is about 4.5 inches, the fore is 7 inches. In this way, you can build to balance the rod without any additional weight.

If you want to use a balancer on a rod, just use one where the weights can be removed if you find you don't like it, and so you can try it without the weights.

You can use Fuji GPS for spinning guide placement:
http://anglersresource.net/GuidePlacementSoftware.aspx

- But I would still buy extra guides and parts. The first rod will be the most expensive with all the parts and tools you'll need to get started.

fshn4lmt · Post by **fshn4lmt** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:40 pm

I agree totally with the advice you have been given so far.I can tell from your post that you are obsessive,and maniacal in your approach and thought pattern for custom rodbuilding.First let me say "welcome to the club" and secondly.........you will have some builds in the beginning that you are not 100% pleased with.There wont be anything wrong with them function wise,but you cant build a stick like its your 100th rod,when you havent built 100 rods.That might not make much sense now,but trust me....it will soon.Start with some cheap blanks ,and get some hardloys or something-and build 5 rods like you "think" you want them.Then dive in a little deeper.
Spend 30 bucks on a digital caliper,that will save you a hassle when you are ordering components,also post q's about your build before and during your build.There are quite a few of us that are more than happy to try and save you the hassle and wasted money that we have all gone through before ,especially in your situation.
One last thing to think about here,that no one has mentioned.A GLX,or Legend Elite is "the berries" for sensitivity,crisp action and overall weight savings and comfort.But consider that the lightest, highest modulous blanks dont always have the best action for certain techniques and applications.The best flippin sticks unfortunately do tend to be a little tip heavy,and having handles any longer than 12 inches just plain ruins a rod,unless you are chucking huge swimbaits all day.Never forget the power of a 9/10 oz. reel either.I love TDZ's,but I dont flip with them,I use a zillion or an old tdx(3 more ounces in back is way better than ruining a nice stick with some balance kit!).Alot of guys hate fiberglass............build a seeker bs706s and cut it down to 6ft9,and I bet you will like s glass!
Keep an open mind,and remember some of the best sticks arent that exspensive,you just have to know what you want,and if you dont........post a thread!
Fshn4lmt

5poundhooker · Post by **5poundhooker** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:44 pm

Balance to me is very important and if you are building with cheaper blanks ($50 & under) a balance kit is not required to balance a rod and it makes them hideous. There are a lot of tungsten items that can be used at the very end of the butt. I always wait until last to install the butt just incase it needs a little help. I used to use tungsten bullet weights, but recently started custom cutting tungsten carbide end mills to the proper weight and size to do the job with zero visual negativity. Now if you buy a really expensive blank it should balance out of the gate. To me I prefer balanced rods and they do feel lighter in hand than the same rod without balancing it. These are just my thoughts. If you take your time your first rod doesn't have to suck. It is all about attention to detail. It is not nearly as complicated as some might suggest.

jimmyb · Post by **jimmyb** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:46 pm

BucketHunter wrote:No I haven't built before, I've done some repair/refurb lately, and have enjoyed it alot. I've always been the kind to get into the tech portion of a hobby, for instance I built and tuned golf cubs, and also built myself custom drums as well.

if you search this forum, you will find tons of advice for starting to build. The best advice is to practice with less expensive components and blanks before you spend $$$ on top of the line stuff (unless you have money to blow, in that case, pay someone else to build!) You should not expect perfection out of the box!

North Branch · Post by **North Branch** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:39 am

Snyder Rods wrote: - Weight can effect sensitivity anywhere on the rod, including the butt - it will effect the entire rod to some degree... and on some builds, it can really kill the sensitivity. Others builds, it might not be noticeable. But it is true that the closer the weight is to the tip, the more effect it will have.

This is EXCELLENT stuff. Can you elaborate more on what type of builds the extra weight would kill sensitivity?

The reason I ask is this... I have a custom St. Croix LX69MLXF spinning rod that Matt built for me. My buddy thought he could "buy" the same rod and got the factory version. Because of the way I had Matt build the handle and grip, mine weighs a "tick" more than his. However, with the TiSic guides, and the smaller size guides on my rod, my rod is definitely lighter from the first guide down the length of the rod to the tip, and "noticeably" more sensitive than his... both of us agree on that. Now, if mine weighed a 1/10 of an ounce or so less in the butt section, might it be more sensitive? I guess it's possible, but I'm not sure I could actually feel or measure it. Mine is actually "scary sensitive" as it is.

With that said, for future reference, I'd like to know what type of builds to avoid any extra weight in the butt section. I could have had Matt eliminate some of the nice metal trim bands on mine to make it a bit lighter, but I did want at least a little "pzazz" in a custom.

jimmyb · Post by **jimmyb** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:57 am

North Branch wrote:
Snyder Rods wrote: - Weight can effect sensitivity anywhere on the rod, including the butt - it will effect the entire rod to some degree... and on some builds, it can really kill the sensitivity. Others builds, it might not be noticeable. But it is true that the closer the weight is to the tip, the more effect it will have.

This is EXCELLENT stuff. Can you elaborate more on what type of builds the extra weight would kill sensitivity?

The reason I ask is this... I have a custom St. Croix LX69MLXF spinning rod that Matt built for me. My buddy thought he could "buy" the same rod and got the factory version. Because of the way I had Matt build the handle and grip, mine weighs a "tick" more than his. However, with the TiSic guides, and the smaller size guides on my rod, my rod is definitely lighter from the first guide down the length of the rod to the tip, and "noticeably" more sensitive than his... both of us agree on that. Now, if mine weighed a 1/10 of an ounce or so less in the butt section, might it be more sensitive? I guess it's possible, but I'm not sure I could actually feel or measure it. Mine is actually "scary sensitive" as it is.

With that said, for future reference, I'd like to know what type of builds to avoid any extra weight in the butt section. I could have had Matt eliminate some of the nice metal trim bands on mine to make it a bit lighter, but I did want at least a little "pzazz" in a custom.

Actually, i would argue that your rod is more sensitive because of the way it is built forward of the reel seat! Personally, I NEVER add any weight to butts of rods until after a rod has been fished!

Since we are on the subject of balancing. Take this scenario:
#1: I am fishing a jig with a rod that i hold a 11oclock with the perfect blend of slack/tight line. I have a rod that balances "tip up" cause i believe a rod has to balance tip up because that is what everyone has told me. A fish comes and bites. The fish is pulling the rod tip towards itself. However the weight in the butt of the rod is resisting this motion. That same weight in the butt is also damping the vibration of the "bite" (engineering science says anytime you add mass, you dampen vibration). This is the case where i believe weight in the butt can hurt you and dampen vibration.

#2: Take the same scenario as above but now put a nice, slightly tip heavy rod in your hand. There is no weight in the butt, but it also means the tip of the rod wants to slowing sink towards the water. Yes, you can feel the slight tip heaviness as you are fishing. But now the fish comes and bites and pulls the line. The rod will drastically want to move and bend towards the water, this movement will be easily felt by the angler. Since there is no weight in the butt of the rod, the rod will naturally want to move more. This is what makes a rod feel more sensitive!

North Branch · Post by **North Branch** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:22 am

jimmyb wrote: Actually, i would argue that your rod is more sensitive because of the way it is built forward of the reel seat!

Other than the better, lighter and smaller guides, what else "forward of the reel seat" would contribute to the sensitivity?

I like your explanation of the "balance" and sensitivity... make sense. Thanks.

Snyder Rods · Post by **Snyder Rods** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:51 am

Snyder Rods wrote: - Weight can effect sensitivity anywhere on the rod, including the butt - it will effect the entire rod to some degree... and on some builds, it can really kill the sensitivity. Others builds, it might not be noticeable. But it is true that the closer the weight is to the tip, the more effect it will have.

This is EXCELLENT stuff. Can you elaborate more on what type of builds the extra weight would kill sensitivity?

- What I mean is extra weight will hurt an UL rod more than a surf rod - there are so many types of rods and parts, reduction of sensitivity will vary widely from rod to rod.

North Branch wrote:
jimmyb wrote: Actually, i would argue that your rod is more sensitive because of the way it is built forward of the reel seat!
Other than the better, lighter and smaller guides, what else "forward of the reel seat" would contribute to the sensitivity?
.

- guide weight - micro guides are your friend, when they are suitable for the job.

- it is possible that metal guides without ceramic inserts might be more sensitive - sandwiching materials together (ceramic+glue joint +metal frame) can reduce sensitivity - and glue especially is a great damping material (bad). That said, I don't recommend metal guides, and I don't use them, I don't feel they protect the line.

- You can wrap a micro running guide instead of a conventional top to save weight.

Most sensitive blanks:

- High modulus

- high modulus +graphite scrim

- faster actions

- higher power blanks

- shorter blanks

Keep in mind that sensitivity is primarily stiffness-to-weight ratio. There is nothing more sensitive than the naked blank itself - anything we add to it is additional weight which reduces sensitivity to some degree.

jimmyb · Post by **jimmyb** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:05 pm

North Branch wrote:
jimmyb wrote: Actually, i would argue that your rod is more sensitive because of the way it is built forward of the reel seat!
Other than the better, lighter and smaller guides, what else "forward of the reel seat" would contribute to the sensitivity?

I like your explanation of the "balance" and sensitivity... make sense. Thanks.

minimal finish and thread.
also good construction practices for bonding the reel seat to blank. graphite arbors + rod bond = good
masking tape =bad

Some general questions on rod bulding

Some general questions on rod bulding

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