Torzite grooving?

[JWR075]

I read in the rod section that Shimano had tested the torzite guides and had an issue with them grooving. Has anyone else heard of this. I am getting ready to have a BFS flipping rod built and had thought about using them but this raises some question since Shimano said they were less hard than whn alconite guides.

[a1712]

If Bantam said they groove, then they groove. That's all I would need to cross them off my build sheet. Brian.

[JWR075]

I wonder if it was just a bad batch? Much like the supposed grooving of the Daiwa TWS. Based on the information released Torzites were supposed to be equal to SIC in hardness and abrasion reinsurance while reducing weight. But with Bantam 1 saying they are weaker than even alconite inserts (nothing wrong with alconite) it makes one wonder that 1) there was a bad batch or 2) Fuji outright lied to the consumers. You would think number 2 would carry very negative press and thus cost them customers.

[Bronzeye]

I'm stunned to read that Fuji would bring to market a top-of-the-line, pay-through-nose guide that it hadn't tested with every type of line under a broad range of adverse conditions. But if Bantam1 says so, I believe it. One big marketing campaign down the toilet for Fuji!

[Jeffbro999]

I changed out all the Recoils on my 842 with Titanium framed Torzites and haven't had any problems with them yet. I also believe what Bantam said and it now has me nervous but I will continue to use them until I see any negative effects. If I ever find anything I will report back.

[cbream]

If Dan actually said this, I will be the first to say he is full of it.

[tywithay]

One of Fuji's tests for abrasion uses a machine that runs the line back and forth across the guide until the line snaps. SiC took around 750 passes and Torzite took around 3100. I know they said the material is 406% less abrasive than SiC. During the course of these tests, the material surely would have shown signs of wear if it was that soft.

[Angler JO]

Here are some facts.
1) TORZITE exactly matches SiC in Abrasion Resistance "Groove Testing"
2) TORZITE surfaces are 5 times smoother than SiC surfaces. Ra(um) test.
3) TORZITE is equally as hard as ALCONITE and SiN but not as hard as SiC. Vickers Scale
4) 8lb fluorocarbon survived 1800 "sawing strokes" through an SiC ring before breaking. Under Identical conditions, 8lb fluorocarbon withstood 7,200 "sawing strokes".

All this info comes from independent testing done by Fuji and is published in their catalog.

If grooved TORZITE guides are out there they should be sent to Anglers Resource immediately for review by FUJI. Thanks.

[BucketHunter]

Here are some facts.
1) TORZITE exactly matches SiC in Abrasion Resistance "Groove Testing"
2) TORZITE surfaces are 5 times smoother than SiC surfaces. Ra(um) test.
3) TORZITE is equally as hard as ALCONITE and SiN but not as hard as SiC. Vickers Scale
4) 8lb fluorocarbon survived 1800 "sawing strokes" through an SiC ring before breaking. Under Identical conditions, 8lb fluorocarbon withstood 7,200 "sawing strokes".

All this info comes from independent testing done by Fuji and is published in their catalog.

If grooved TORZITE guides are out there they should be sent to Anglers Resource immediately for review by FUJI. Thanks.

How can testing done by Fuji be "independant"?
These facts are all supplied by Fuji. While I can't imagine they would just flat out lie about it, I can't see Bantam doing so either. They have used Fuji for years. Why dog a corporate partner?

[cbream]

The testing may not be independent but who else but Fuji is going to spend the time and expense doing this level of testing.

Dan may not be lying but his paycheck does come from Shimano and since he is still employed, that possibility is a reality of life today in the corporate world. When you make a statement like his, even if he was simply reading from a script, some sort of factual and verifiable evidence is an absolute requirement. Otherwise, you look like an idiot mouthpiece or a vendor taking a cheap shot, take your pick.

Fuji may not be lying but they would not be the first to embellish test results to satisfy the marketing objectives. Anyone remember Gold Cermets and that launch and short lived rise and fall?

The guys from Anglers Resource have weighed in. Dan will as well, if Shimano wants this battle to continue. Hopefully, they will have something more than a unsubstantiated opinion and an excuse that recoils are the better choice.

[Sore Thumb]

If Bantam said they groove, then they groove. That's all I would need to cross them off my build sheet. Brian.

Bantam1 also said that early recoils grooved but Shimano accepted this and asked the supplier to improve their QC. Other people with no ties to Recoil or Shimano claim to still have issues. Early batches of many products can have issues that only arise under certain conditions, it is a fairly common occurence in any high volume production environment. Few manufacturers who use such products have a problem with it. Lets face it Shimano's NRX line was a disaster when first launched, but they got it right eventually.

[a1712]

If Bantam said they groove, then they groove. That's all I would need to cross them off my build sheet. Brian.

Bantam1 also said that early recoils grooved but Shimano accepted this and asked the supplier to improve their QC. Other people with no ties to Recoil or Shimano claim to still have issues. Early batches of many products can have issues that only arise under certain conditions, it is a fairly common occurence in any high volume production environment. Few manufacturers who use such products have a problem with it. Lets face it Shimano's NRX line was a disaster when first launched, but they got it right eventually.

I don't use recoils either. Brian.

[Mattman]

How can testing done by Fuji be "independant"?

In my real job, we contract our independent testing out to the University Of Minnesota. Their test lab is basically on retainer and they do stain resistance, scratch, mar, Taber abrasion, adhesion, UV stability, etc, testing for us. We pay for a lab to test for us.

[cbream]

Dan did reply over in the Rods section. My response is posted below.

Dan,

Thank you for your response and comments. Good to know what info you received and from where. Given those circumstances, everything was at least second hand and might not convey all of the details or the whole story. I hope your assumption is correct in that Shimano would discuss with Fuji any concerns that the testing did or did not reveal. The fact that this testing you refer to occurred in Japan could indicate that an early prototype was used and might explain this matter. QC is always a key element and sometimes takes a manufacturing company a little time to dial in.

The Torzite guides I have used are on 6 rods and were purchased from USA distributors, who usually are at the back of the line, even according to Anglers Resource. I have no testing, other than real life usage. I did view the guide rings under high magnification and they appeared to be a smoother finish as compared to SIC or Alconite rings.

You made a further comment about Recoil guides and a weight advantage over Fuji micro guides. I have weighed more guides than I care to admit with a laboratory scale and we can certainly compare numbers. The wraps and finish on many guides would weigh more than the guide alone. Needless to say, If Shimano engineers stand by their contention, I will again be the first to say they are full of it.

[cbream]

For some "lab tests" from the other side of the aisle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSTFnDH2t6Y&app=desktop