Keys to building light and sensitive rods

When production rods are not enough, it's time to go custom. Come share your experiences building and/or ordering a custom rod and tell us if you'll ever go back to off the shelf.
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amso4
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Keys to building light and sensitive rods

Post by amso4 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:46 pm

I am a new builder getting started. So far I gave built 3 and am now getting more ambitious.
I picked up an Xray MB733 and 736 and am planning out what to use to make them as light as possible and get the most out of the blank's sensitivity. The 736 will be a bottom contact rod and the 733 will be for worming.

I notice on my NRX and conquest that they use a minimalist exposed blank reel seat. I think that is key to low weight. Unfortunately, I cannot find anything other than the Minima seat that is similar. What is the best option for a seat that meets the main design criteria of light and sensitive? Is the Minima the best option? So far I have used the Fuji Ecsm, but it weighs 0.95 oz and barely exposes the blank for the first finger past the trigger.

As for guides I was thinking using the Fuji KW and KT going 7, 6, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5. with the Black Ti SIC models. Not sure about these and if they are worth the cost.

I hope some of you more experienced builders can cast some thoughts about these builds an help get me heading in the right direction. My longer term plans are to replace all of my NRX, Conquest, Xtasy and Daiwa AGS rods with ones that I build. For now I need to learn what parts are needed to meet or exceed the lightness and sensitivity of these higher end rods as replacements.

I am looking forward to comments and suggestions.
Dave, Towson Md.

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Mattman
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Re: Keys to building light and sensitive rods

Post by Mattman » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:00 am

My thoughts after 500+ rods...

95% of that sensitivity gain you pick up by building light is all from your hand to the tip of the rod. The seat and the grip are the remaining 5%. And some would argue that building too light in the butt ruins a good balance and negates your sensitivity with poor balance. And building too minimal in the seat and handle can create something that isn't comfortable to fish with. Afterall, it still has to be a usable tool.

What's the point in building a rod with a crappy, but light, reel seat and handle that isn't comfortable to fish with. Your connection to the lure is from your hand forward. That's where reducing weight and optimizing performance needs to happen.

Take a rod and tape a dime to the tip and notice how the sensitivity changes. Now take two quarters and tape them to the butt of your rod and see how that feels.

Spend your money and your time making the rod as efficient as possible from your hand forward. Light guides and small wraps. Make your rod from the hand back as comfortable as possible with an eye towards minimalism. A comfortable reel seat and just enough grip for a comfortable hand hold. Use geometry rather than weight to keep your balance as good as possible without adding extra weight for balance sake.
Matt Davis
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bbates3
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Re: Keys to building light and sensitive rods

Post by bbates3 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:54 am

Ti guides with torzite are super light

I just built some point blank ml spinning rods

My 73ml is an ounce lighter than my 76 Ags spinner for comparison and it’s more powerful

ImageUntitled by benjie bates, on Flickr


I just used the mvt reel seat and love the feel.

Casting wise

I’ve got an mb736 X-ray
Acs reel seat
Cork handle and butt
Ti guides with sic

And it’s a lighter combo than my 72 Ags mh

Added no weight balance is great like Matt said adjust geometry for balance
Last edited by bbates3 on Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Keys to building light and sensitive rods

Post by HobeyBaker » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:37 am

I have two 736 XRays (one is a SJ and the other is a MBR) that were delivered this week and the supplies. I'm doing torzites on both rods with American Tackle CCT carbon reel seats. One rod is going to be a split grip with cork and a spinning rod and the other is going to have a G2 carbon fiber split grip. I'll weigh the rods when I'm finished.

Recoils are another option if you don't want to go with torzites. I plan on using heavier braid with flouro leaders on both of these rods and I don't like recoils for this. This is the reason I got rid of my NRX casting rods.

amso4
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Re: Keys to building light and sensitive rods

Post by amso4 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:06 am

Mattman wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:00 am
My thoughts after 500+ rods...

95% of that sensitivity gain you pick up by building light is all from your hand to the tip of the rod. The seat and the grip are the remaining 5%. And some would argue that building too light in the butt ruins a good balance and negates your sensitivity with poor balance. And building too minimal in the seat and handle can create something that isn't comfortable to fish with. Afterall, it still has to be a usable tool.

What's the point in building a rod with a crappy, but light, reel seat and handle that isn't comfortable to fish with. Your connection to the lure is from your hand forward. That's where reducing weight and optimizing performance needs to happen.

Take a rod and tape a dime to the tip and notice how the sensitivity changes. Now take two quarters and tape them to the butt of your rod and see how that feels.

Spend your money and your time making the rod as efficient as possible from your hand forward. Light guides and small wraps. Make your rod from the hand back as comfortable as possible with an eye towards minimalism. A comfortable reel seat and just enough grip for a comfortable hand hold. Use geometry rather than weight to keep your balance as good as possible without adding extra weight for balance sake.
I see your logic and appreciate its meaning.

So from a your experienced view point, can you suggest a guide train for the builds and possibly a grip combo that follows your guidance. I am searching for some solid foundation to base some of the key points of the rod. I realize after a few builds and mistakes I will develop a clearer definition of what I prefer, but at this point I am looking for some thoughts and recommendations.

Dave

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Re: Keys to building light and sensitive rods

Post by Hogsticker2 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:06 pm

Have a look at the new American Tackle carbon reel seats. I see no need to use two double foot guides on either of those blanks, especially the 733. I typically use a 6 - 6.5 stripper guide, and then run with 5 - 5.5 runners / belly guides the rest of the way up. Trim your reel seat threads if necessary, slap a winding check in there, and call it good. Keep the grip around 9 inches and use a relatively light butt cap. This is my typical build style, though sometimes I tend to get a little carried away with trim pieces and fancy reel seat hoods. Just keep it balanced and you should be fine.

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Re: Keys to building light and sensitive rods

Post by Mattman » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:47 am

amso4 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:06 am

As for guides I was thinking using the Fuji KW and KT going 7, 6, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
amso4 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:06 am


So from a your experienced view point, can you suggest a guide train for the builds and possibly a grip combo that follows your guidance.

There is nothing wrong with your train. That should work just fine.

Personally, I rarely use steps that are just one guide size. 2 sizes is typically my minimum. I see no reason for your #6.

Personally, I don't like stripper guides that small. I tend to like a larger guide to keep line evenly tensioned in the levelwind. Some reels that I've had don't like a small stripper. I tend to like to run a 10, 7, 5 train to cover every reel I may use. And I always run a spiral wrap.
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amso4
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Re: Keys to building light and sensitive rods

Post by amso4 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:14 pm

You mentioned Spiral wrap. I have a question.

Today I was fishing with a rod I built and had problems. It is a 7'6" ML rod that I had a Alpha Air TW with 10lb braid and 15ft 10lb flouro leader with FG knot. The rod has 7,6,5 (8) guides LZR from Mudhole.

I was throwing a 1/4oz crankbait and kept getting weird casting problems, not a typical overrun backlash. It was kinds like the line was hanging up a little through the guides and getting caught a little. The line would then stop suddenly due to line overun in the reel. Not sure if it was the reel/line combo or if it was something else.

I switched the reel to a Bantam with straight 12lb FC with the same little crankbait and all the problems went a away and everything was fine. I moved the Alphas Air TW to a Conquest 903 and used a light swimbait and never had any guide/line problems. It was something about the rod reel line combo that was the problem.

I have read that long FC leaders can cause problems with light braid getting hung up as the differences in line flexibility can get the braid to jam up an hang on a guide. The foot of the LZR guides is just a simple post without any anti tangle baffles like the Fuji KT guides have at their base. The guides on the Conquest are not like the LZR design.

I am about to do another build and need to get an understanding of what may be happening on this setup so I can avoid it in the future.

I am going out again tomorrow and was looking for some ideas of what I can do to make the problem go away.

Appreciate any thoughts or ideas to try. I am open to anything. Even thinking of rewrapping the rod using different guides as a test or trying a spiral wrap.

Dave

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