Question about Zaion?

[Finnz922]

When did someone decide that Zaion is "plastic"? I cannot find anywhere other than T3, Ballistic, and new Steez(and that's not even out yet) haters on this forum that say Zaion is plastic. Buck, Nitroman, Cal. Someone please enlighten me because I don't understand all the hate on Zaion.

I do only own the T3 Ballistic and the Fuego A. T3 is a pretty decent reel when you add a bearing to the drive shaft, levelwind, and 4 bearing CF handle to it and upgrade the spool bearings to ABEC 7 OS's. The Fuego A is in the top 3 made in the US reels IMO of course behind the Stella and Steez. Not because of money either I just don't think there are others that compare with those. Some come close but still fall short. I own Pixies and Fuegos as far as magnesium goes but I like them both so.... I do however understand the weight dissapointment with new Steez and the Tawain or Thailand stickers.

Back to my question. Why do people call Zaion plastic when it cleary says it is carbon based?

[JWR075]

I think people are using the term "plastic" due to the make up being nothing more than a glorified carbon/graphite material (nonmetal).

[oxyeleotris]

Because most plastics, such as Nylon-6 and ABS (used in fishing reels), also are carbon based. The building blocks for these polymers are different hydrocarbons.

According to an old post I saw from the Australian Daiwa website, the Zaion breakthrough was described as replacing the fiberglass fibers with carbon fibers in the material matrix for a significant increase in rigidity.

[Finnz922]

So... What your saying is that it is plastic or might be because that is how others are made? Sorry for the clarification

[GARRIGA]

I think most of the negative sentiments towards Ziaon is due to the lower cost of production and yet the product's associated with it are rather pricy. Close to and now exceeding Japan made exotics. At least that's my reason for hating on it. I have a CI4 but I wouldn't pay $800 for it. The T3 and Ballistic should have been cheaper. The T3 domestic is close to the price of a Steez from just a few years ago and that was the flagship reel. I love my Zs but won't buy a single one if made of Ziaon. well, at least not for $600 plus.

[oxyeleotris]

So... What your saying is that it is plastic or might be because that is how others are made? Sorry for the clarification

No, it's just how I interpret Daiwa's original comments on Zaion:

Zaion
Zaion technology opens up a completely new world of the development for the modern spinning
reel, a reel that is hyper light, strong and corrosion free, in 2007 a new reel is born that will set the
standard for all to follow, the new all-rounder reel – Luvias.
“Zaion” is a brand new type of material, simply explained it is a high density carbon resin. To
understand “Zaion” first we need to understand the other materials that are used in the production
of the modern spinning reel. First, Aluminium, this is one of the most commonly used materials. It
is easily machined, relatively corrosion resistant, extremely rigid and very light. But in recent times
has become expensive. Magnesium, often used in the development of high end reels, it is
incredibly light and strong. But it has low corrosion resistance, very expensive, requires extremely
high technology to achieve corrosion resistance and precision at the same time. And last universal
plastic or FRP (fibre resin plastic) – resin reinforced with fibre glass – this can never compare to
other materials for lightness and strength but it is fully corrosion resistant and economical.
This is where “Zaion” steps in; many manufacturers creatively use each different material
depending on the characteristics that are required to produce reel bodies. The new “Zaion”
material replaces glass fibres with carbon fibres to create an extremely rigid, strong material. The
material is first “cast” then machined to create a body that exhibits the same precision and strength
compared to that of magnesium or an aluminium body. Yet it is the same weight as magnesium
but fully corrosion resistant.

[Buck2thPerch]

First and foremost, no offense to anyone.

Alot of people are ill informed about most of these so called "Carbon" material reels. This has been an ongoing educational item. Amongst the average fishing Joe, they don't care to research or know what a reel is made of or how it works. They just care that it catches fish for them. Thus when you have 20yrs old working in Cabelas stating that "Zaion" or "CI4" is Plastic, they are indeed dumbing it down or ill informed to ill informed - for your average Joe. Consequently, the average Joe is far more in numbers vs the TT breed. A second reason is people do not like the Carbon reels and how it feels. Thus some of us call it plastic even though we now what it is, as a demeaning term.

Overall we al lknow Carbon is not Plastic. It is stronger and does not flex like plastic. NASA and the Aerospace manufacturers would never put plastic on and in your normal airplanes. They however put Carbon in place of metal parts to save weight and cost. Daiwa, Shimano, and Abu Garcia are now also making that jump. As I have stated before, it is a cost and money saving initiative that these reel manufacturers gearing towards. I love the way my Pixy-R feels with its Magnesium frame but at the same time I would never fish it in saltwater or brackish water conditions. However, Carbon resists Saltwater thus killing two birds with one stone. For example, the Zillion Coastal and the Zillion. Two same reels...different applications. Two different cost and two different expenditures while the T3 can cover both. Most people close and around me who has never fished a T3, when they use mine they immediately comment on the hollow feel. Some who has used magnesium reels automatically think the reel is magnesium because of the hallow and light feel of magnesium. However, I then ofcourse, educate them on Zaion, CI4, and Carbon. To thier astonishment, the reel has no flex and pretty impressed with the performance.

Finally, onto my T3, It is now a fully upgraded 11+1 Bearing reel with ABEC 7 Spool bearings and carbon fibre 90mm handles. The reel again feels very much like that of a Magnesium reel but fishes like that of an aluminum reel. I love this reel and would probably buy a few more if the price wasn't so high on these reels. But look no further, this years 2012 ICAST will right the wrongs...hopefully.

[njbasscat]

First and foremost, no offense to anyone.

Alot of people are ill informed about most of these so called "Carbon" material reels. This has been an ongoing educational item. Amongst the average fishing Joe, they don't care to research or know what a reel is made of or how it works. They just care that it catches fish for them. Thus when you have 20yrs old working in Cabelas stating that "Zaion" or "CI4" is Plastic, they are indeed dumbing it down or ill informed to ill informed - for your average Joe. Consequently, the average Joe is far more in numbers vs the TT breed. A second reason is people do not like the Carbon reels and how it feels. Thus some of us call it plastic even though we now what it is, as a demeaning term.

Overall we al lknow Carbon is not Plastic. It is stronger and does not flex like plastic. NASA and the Aerospace manufacturers would never put plastic on and in your normal airplanes. They however put Carbon in place of metal parts to save weight and cost. Daiwa, Shimano, and Abu Garcia are now also making that jump. As I have stated before, it is a cost and money saving initiative that these reel manufacturers gearing towards. I love the way my Pixy-R feels with its Magnesium frame but at the same time I would never fish it in saltwater or brackish water conditions. However, Carbon resists Saltwater thus killing two birds with one stone. For example, the Zillion Coastal and the Zillion. Two same reels...different applications. Two different cost and two different expenditures while the T3 can cover both. Most people close and around me who has never fished a T3, when they use mine they immediately comment on the hollow feel. Some who has used magnesium reels automatically think the reel is magnesium because of the hallow and light feel of magnesium. However, I then ofcourse, educate them on Zaion, CI4, and Carbon. To thier astonishment, the reel has no flex and pretty impressed with the performance.

Finally, onto my T3, It is now a fully upgraded 11+1 Bearing reel with ABEC 7 Spool bearings and carbon fibre 90mm handles. The reel again feels very much like that of a Magnesium reel but fishes like that of an aluminum reel. I love this reel and would probably buy a few more if the price wasn't so high on these reels. But look no further, this years 2012 ICAST will right the wrongs...hopefully.

If Zalion is more cost effective than why do Daiwas prices keep going up?

[MaxZmus]

I also hate on it due to the fact that if it does indeed cost less to produce, then why on earth are they charging through the roof for it? The fact is, I had a Ci4 and fished it side by side with a Stradic Fi for about 3 months. The material just isn't as rigid and the Ci4 just doesn't feel as solid as a regular aluminum based reel. I refuse to pay more for a product that's clearly inferior.

[y2k88]

Isn't Zaion carbon fibre-REINFORCED resin/polymer/plastic?

[y2k88]

As for the cost, I think the Zaion Luvias was cheaper than the Mg Luvias. It was also marketed as a cheaper alternative. Not sure where that trend went... Think the Luvias was the first reel to adopt Zaion.

[Buck2thPerch]

If Zalion is more cost effective than why do Daiwas prices keep going up?

Simple. Low cost product to produce and sell it at a premium. There are number of manufacturers that I can list that does this - Apple, Monster cable, Bose, etc. list goes on. Daiwa is a business and businesses are there to make money. One can argue for Daiwa (basically all manufacturers that does this) that the high cost is there for all the "Research & Development" as well.

Secondly, I have posted this many times and it comes straight from Daiwa's sources themsevles. The higher prices are also a refelction of the status of currency exchange rate as well. If these reels were to come out say 4yrs ago, the T3-Ballistic prices would be right around $189. The T3-1016 would be right around $319. Basic economics - If it costs you 250 Yen to make the reel but sell it in the US for $250....at the current exchange rate, you are losing money. That money lost has to be made elsewhere. In Daiwa's case, they are marking and adjusting thier prices to reflect the exchange rate directly with thier products. Unlike banks or other manufacturers where they can make this money up from services and fees etc.

Lastly...yes, Zaion, CI4, and Carbon can be produced cheaper and is an unlimited resource versus Aluminum and Magnesium. If I am right and from what I have heard in the fishing industries about materials such as Zaion, CI4, etc.....pennies on the dollars to make but goes back to my R&D statement. The only thing that I have not confirmed or have not heard any comparisons and will likely never be, is how does Zaion, CI4 and Abu Garcia's Carbon compare to that of the Aeropspace. There was a lenghty discussion just recently here on TT (too lazy to search and post) with alot of good information on Carbon used in the Fishing industry and Aerospace.

As much as anyone wants to say Carbon is Plastic, it is not.

[Buck2thPerch]

Here's the link to the discussion about composite materials. Alot of good information with alot of good input from TT memembers who have or still have ties to the Aerospace industries.

http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic. ... 18#p319783

[Buck2thPerch]

Isn't Zaion carbon fibre-REINFORCED resin/polymer/plastic?

I am not too sure as to what exactly is used. But regardless here an analogy to better explain Carbon whether carbon has some type of plastic compound in it or not.

What is Bronze(Zaion, CI4..etc) made of? Answer, Copper and Tin. I have never heard anyone call Bronze "Copper" or "Tin" (Plastic).

[y2k88]

Isn't Zaion carbon fibre-REINFORCED resin/polymer/plastic?

What is Bronze(Zaion, CI4..etc) made of? Answer, Copper and Tin. I have never heard anyone call Bronze "Copper" or "Tin" (Plastic).

If bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, what is Zaion?

Anyway, just having a go at the people who 'market' Zaion or CI4 to be as good (in who knows what respect) as aerospace composites.

The aerospace industry uses plastic. So do condoms.

Aluminium is a metal. So is mercury.