Spy Bait Reel - High End

[HobeyBaker]

I'm looking for a new reel for a 902s NRX. I use this rod to throw spy baits. I want a slow gear ratio reel in 4000 size for line management and slower retrieves. I would pick up a Certate LT 4000D-C, but they seem to be sold out everywhere. I think I'm down to a 22 Exist 4000D, 23 Vanquish 4000 MHG, and a 21 Airity 4000D-C.

1. Is there a big enough difference between the 22 Exist and 18 Exist (Airity) to justify the $200 cost difference?

2. For those who have a 22 Stella, is the slow oscillating spool and fin a game changer with line management? I'll be using 6 lb flouro. If it is, then I think I'll order the new Vanquish when it's released.

[DirtyD64]

I'm looking for a new reel for a 902s NRX. I use this rod to throw spy baits. I want a slow gear ratio reel in 4000 size for line management and slower retrieves. I would pick up a Certate LT 4000D-C, but they seem to be sold out everywhere. I think I'm down to a 22 Exist 4000D, 23 Vanquish 4000 MHG, and a 21 Airity 4000D-C.

1. Is there a big enough difference between the 22 Exist and 18 Exist (Airity) to justify the $200 cost difference?

2. For those who have a 22 Stella, is the slow oscillating spool and fin a game changer with line management? I'll be using 6 lb flouro. If it is, then I think I'll order the new Vanquish when it's released.

I know a lot of people say the line lay on higher end Shimano reels is unrivaled. Not sure if the highest end Daiwa spinners have a worm gear style oscillation or how their system works, but only praise for Shimano, especially with light fluorocarbon management. Line quality will probably play a big part for the setup you are creating.

[reason162]

I'm looking for a new reel for a 902s NRX. I use this rod to throw spy baits. I want a slow gear ratio reel in 4000 size for line management and slower retrieves. I would pick up a Certate LT 4000D-C, but they seem to be sold out everywhere. I think I'm down to a 22 Exist 4000D, 23 Vanquish 4000 MHG, and a 21 Airity 4000D-C.

1. Is there a big enough difference between the 22 Exist and 18 Exist (Airity) to justify the $200 cost difference?

2. For those who have a 22 Stella, is the slow oscillating spool and fin a game changer with line management? I'll be using 6 lb flouro. If it is, then I think I'll order the new Vanquish when it's released.

I feel the 22 Stella's line lay is a significant improvement on casting distance with braid at least - haven't tried it on straight 5-6lb fluoro yet but I will soon. My gut tells me that shark fin will make a difference with straight fluoro on slack line techniques as well.

It's a tough choice because I still find the 18 Exist/Certate/Airity drag superior to Stella/Vanquish, but the gap is narrowed with the new Stella.

Personally I think 4k is too big for any freshwater bass application - 3000MHG is my go to Shimano size for 7'6 rods, esp with straight fluoro and stripper guides designed for 2500 - 3000 arbors.

[Drakestar]

Line lay looks better on my 2500 Stella FK over my 2000 Exists '22. The Exists has a smaller spool so it's not a 1-to-1 comparison, but it feels better. I'm using Fireline and can't speak to straight fluoro. There are a bunch of photos (from me and others) in this German forum thread, if you want visuals: https://www.barsch-alarm.de/community/t ... ost-940631

I saw a discussion on using 4000-size reels for finesse on a different board, and the argument seems to be that more line comes from the top of the spool (less friction as line doesn't rub against the lip of the spool), and - with straight fluoro - I'd guess you get bigger loops of line memory, which sounds more manageable. That said - I find that bomber casts on my 2500 Stella FK don't dig too deeply into the spool, and the line lay is so good that the line comes off the spool easily. (I'm using a Steez 761MML for my spybaiting, with Stella FK, Fireline and long leaders.)

[HobeyBaker]

I'm looking for a new reel for a 902s NRX. I use this rod to throw spy baits. I want a slow gear ratio reel in 4000 size for line management and slower retrieves. I would pick up a Certate LT 4000D-C, but they seem to be sold out everywhere. I think I'm down to a 22 Exist 4000D, 23 Vanquish 4000 MHG, and a 21 Airity 4000D-C.

1. Is there a big enough difference between the 22 Exist and 18 Exist (Airity) to justify the $200 cost difference?

2. For those who have a 22 Stella, is the slow oscillating spool and fin a game changer with line management? I'll be using 6 lb flouro. If it is, then I think I'll order the new Vanquish when it's released.

I feel the 22 Stella's line lay is a significant improvement on casting distance with braid at least - haven't tried it on straight 5-6lb fluoro yet but I will soon. My gut tells me that shark fin will make a difference with straight fluoro on slack line techniques as well.

It's a tough choice because I still find the 18 Exist/Certate/Airity drag superior to Stella/Vanquish, but the gap is narrowed with the new Stella.

Personally I think 4k is too big for any freshwater bass application - 3000MHG is my go to Shimano size for 7'6 rods, esp with straight fluoro and stripper guides designed for 2500 - 3000 arbors.

I personally love them for any rods over 7 feet in length. The weight of the high-end magnesium framed reels is still around 200 grams in 4000 sized reels, so I don't see any downside while it provides the benefits of better line management.

Is the line lay another level or two better than an Exist?

[HobeyBaker]

Line lay looks better on my 2500 Stella FK over my 2000 Exists '22. The Exists has a smaller spool so it's not a 1-to-1 comparison, but it feels better. I'm using Fireline and can't speak to straight fluoro. There are a bunch of photos (from me and others) in this German forum thread, if you want visuals: https://www.barsch-alarm.de/community/t ... ost-940631

I saw a discussion on using 4000-size reels for finesse on a different board, and the argument seems to be that more line comes from the top of the spool (less friction as line doesn't rub against the lip of the spool), and - with straight fluoro - I'd guess you get bigger loops of line memory, which sounds more manageable. That said - I find that bomber casts on my 2500 Stella FK don't dig too deeply into the spool, and the line lay is so good that the line comes off the spool easily. (I'm using a Steez 761MML for my spybaiting, with Stella FK, Fireline and long leaders.)

I'm not able to enlarge the photos because I'm not a member. It sounds like the line lay is better, but it doesn't cause a significant difference in actual fishing conditions.

[Cranky]

If you like the 4000 diameter spools then I’ll leave that size debate alone.

I do think the new Shimano line lay in combination with the long spool profile out-casts Daiwa currently, especially on the larger/taller spools with very small diameter line.

For the fluoro sizes you’re thinking I would absolutely not buy a D-deep spool, I’d actually buy a JDM S-shallow in any model you’re thinking (or M-shallowish in Shimano). You’re going to waste a huge amount of line on a deep spool and for me I’d rather re-spool a shallow spool multiple times with fresh line and full-diameter performance than cut progressively deeper into a deep spool with older line and dramatically reduced casting performance.

Spybaits… feather-touch ultra airy winding “feel” hands down goes to Shimano Vanquish (or Stella). Not close. Not even a competition. Not a popular viewpoint on TT, I know, but the Daiwa spinning reels can’t compete with Shimano high end in winding feel right now… and yes I own both and have used spinning reels religiously over 30+ years. They have significantly different feel head to head.

If it were my money, I’d hands down buy the 23 Vanquish 4000MHG for what you’re looking for. Those are all great reels overall but for your application, that reel has no peer.

[HobeyBaker]

I’m not sure I agree with the winding feel of Shimano being better than Daiwa. I had a Stella FJ 3000 and it wasn’t any smoother than any of the Daiwa Certate LTs I have. It might be a different story with the 22 Stella and 22 Exist, but I have a hard time believing it hands down better.

I’m leaning towards the 21 Luvias Airity. It looks like I can get a SLP Works shallow spool that comes with the ATD-L drag that the 22 Exist has.

The 4000 size reel is not debatable to me. Here’s an 18 Exist 4000 that I took from another rod and put it on a 902 NRX.

[dragon1]

FWIW, I believe that the 4000 LT Daiwa spool is about the same diameter as the Real Four 3000. IMO Shimano needs a 3500 sized spool since the 2500/3000 is essentially the same diameter.

I also agree that the Vanquish, going all the way back to the 2010 model I used to own, is exceptional with fluoro management and casting.

Good luck man, there's a lot of stellar reels on your list of contenders.

[reason162]

Spybaits… feather-touch ultra airy winding “feel” hands down goes to Shimano Vanquish (or Stella). Not close. Not even a competition. Not a popular viewpoint on TT, I know, but the Daiwa spinning reels can’t compete with Shimano high end in winding feel right now…

Yeah, you're talking crazy lol - I would take the "winding feel" of a Certate over both the FJ and FK Stella, let alone the Exist. If Shimano didn't double down on their line management with the FK and new Vanquish, it wouldn't even be on my radar.

[LowRange]

Hijacking to ask a bait question. I forgot three baits where a thing until now. Are these any good early season after ice out up to pre spawn or are they more of a fall lure? Looking to add to my early season arsenal.

[HobeyBaker]

It works year round. I really like it post cold front, prespawn for smallmouth when they are cruising. It seems like it out produces finesse swimbaits in that scenario.

[Cranky]

Like I said, I’m willing to acknowledge it’s not a popular opinion on TT. Lots of Daiwa users will not agree, that’s fine. Most people aren’t even talking about the same “winding” thing anyway but if you line up a set of Exist/Airity/Certate vs Stella/Vanquish, actually wind them, there’s no question the Shimanos have a lower resistance, lighter touch, airy winding feel. Most people DO NOT care for bass fishing and it’s lost in the noise reel to reel once it’s mounted on a rod, but for ultralight fishing or feather touch applications if that’s what is important to you, look at the Shimanos.

Im fine if others don’t agree but I own and use both brands and the reels mentioned, just trying to be objective for a spybait application.

As far as spool sizes go, it’s right in the reel specs, just go look them up. 40/42/43/44/45/47/48/51/52 mm diameters. You can compare apples to apples. For the 4000 sizes you’re looking at 51 or 52mm between the two brands and then lighter weight vs heavier weight and that’ll just impact the rod balance/feel. I agree there’s many cases with longer rods that a Certate or Stella will balance and feel better than an Exist/Vanquish/Airity.

[reason162]

Most people aren’t even talking about the same “winding” thing anyway but if you line up a set of Exist/Airity/Certate vs Stella/Vanquish, actually wind them, there’s no question the Shimanos have a lower resistance, lighter touch, airy winding feel.

The people responding in this thread have tested the Daiwas and Shimanos side by side - I certainly have. And the Stella - with its heavy aluminum rotor - is by far the least "airy" winding reel of them all. That's not a bad thing, and I would argue it actually feels more "refined" on a steady retrieve technique like spybaiting. It seems Shimano feels the same way, as they explain the different design philosophy behind the Vanquish and Stella -

[reason162]

Hijacking to ask a bait question. I forgot three baits where a thing until now. Are these any good early season after ice out up to pre spawn or are they more of a fall lure? Looking to add to my early season arsenal.

High sun flat calm middle of Summer technique for me, and anytime you're dealing with suspended smallies.