22 Bantam MGL...

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tdm
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22 Bantam MGL...

Post by tdm » Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:53 pm

Ok guys I know that the new 22 Bantam MGL is ready for pre-order and been checking it out and I like the new features so far,
but i'm a little confused about the new "Infinity Drive" and no more X-ship, I've been reading and looking at reel schematics that
has this feature, please correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the 18 Bantam MGL and 20 Metanium technically have the Infinity Drive feature already?

I know some of you guys know exactly what I mean since it's been posted somewhere in here before.

Thanks

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by DirtyD64 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:22 pm

tdm wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:53 pm
Ok guys I know that the new 22 Bantam MGL is ready for pre-order and been checking it out and I like the new features so far,
but i'm a little confused about the new "Infinity Drive" and no more X-ship, I've been reading and looking at reel schematics that
has this feature, please correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the 18 Bantam MGL and 20 Metanium technically have the Infinity Drive feature already?

I know some of you guys know exactly what I mean since it's been posted somewhere in here before.

Thanks
I am not fully sure what Infinity Drive is... I thought it was an extra bearing on the main shaft, like the 21 Calcutta Conquest has. The old Bantam had: 2 spool bearings, 2 pinion bearings, 2 mainshaft bearings, and an anti-reverse bearing, (also 2 knob bearings but they don't really mean as much). The new Conquest (I think) has 3 main shaft bearings (along with 2 spool, 2 pinion, 4 total knob, 2 levelwind, and an anti-reverse for 14 total). I figured the new Bantam had one extra because it reads that Infinity Drive is a "new main shaft supporting structure" that helps fluidity. But the bearing count is identical at 8+1. I always like the engineering gimmicks and will have to figure out exactly what Infinity Drive is...

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by tdm » Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:38 am

DirtyD64 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:22 pm
tdm wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:53 pm
Ok guys I know that the new 22 Bantam MGL is ready for pre-order and been checking it out and I like the new features so far,
but i'm a little confused about the new "Infinity Drive" and no more X-ship, I've been reading and looking at reel schematics that
has this feature, please correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the 18 Bantam MGL and 20 Metanium technically have the Infinity Drive feature already?

I know some of you guys know exactly what I mean since it's been posted somewhere in here before.

Thanks
I am not fully sure what Infinity Drive is... I thought it was an extra bearing on the main shaft, like the 21 Calcutta Conquest has. The old Bantam had: 2 spool bearings, 2 pinion bearings, 2 mainshaft bearings, and an anti-reverse bearing, (also 2 knob bearings but they don't really mean as much). The new Conquest (I think) has 3 main shaft bearings (along with 2 spool, 2 pinion, 4 total knob, 2 levelwind, and an anti-reverse for 14 total). I figured the new Bantam had one extra because it reads that Infinity Drive is a "new main shaft supporting structure" that helps fluidity. But the bearing count is identical at 8+1. I always like the engineering gimmicks and will have to figure out exactly what Infinity Drive is...
I did exactly the same, counted the bearings and stuff, Shimano's description of the Infinity Drive on their website for the new Bantam seems to be for the spinning reel but Japan's website descriptions are more like it, still a little confusing. We'll have to wait for the schematic to find out, I guess. One thing caught my attention was a different in shape when looking at spool shaft's design, meaning the pinion gear might have been revised. I really think the new Bantam still have the X-ship but say an "improved" version of it?

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by DirtyD64 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:49 am

tdm wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:38 am
DirtyD64 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:22 pm
tdm wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:53 pm
Ok guys I know that the new 22 Bantam MGL is ready for pre-order and been checking it out and I like the new features so far,
but i'm a little confused about the new "Infinity Drive" and no more X-ship, I've been reading and looking at reel schematics that
has this feature, please correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the 18 Bantam MGL and 20 Metanium technically have the Infinity Drive feature already?

I know some of you guys know exactly what I mean since it's been posted somewhere in here before.

Thanks
I am not fully sure what Infinity Drive is... I thought it was an extra bearing on the main shaft, like the 21 Calcutta Conquest has. The old Bantam had: 2 spool bearings, 2 pinion bearings, 2 mainshaft bearings, and an anti-reverse bearing, (also 2 knob bearings but they don't really mean as much). The new Conquest (I think) has 3 main shaft bearings (along with 2 spool, 2 pinion, 4 total knob, 2 levelwind, and an anti-reverse for 14 total). I figured the new Bantam had one extra because it reads that Infinity Drive is a "new main shaft supporting structure" that helps fluidity. But the bearing count is identical at 8+1. I always like the engineering gimmicks and will have to figure out exactly what Infinity Drive is...
I did exactly the same, counted the bearings and stuff, Shimano's description of the Infinity Drive on their website for the new Bantam seems to be for the spinning reel but Japan's website descriptions are more like it, still a little confusing. We'll have to wait for the schematic to find out, I guess. One thing caught my attention was a different in shape when looking at spool shaft's design, meaning the pinion gear might have been revised. I really think the new Bantam still have the X-ship but say an "improved" version of it?
I researched pretty hard last night on this, I remember when the first new Bantam came out there was a controversy. TackleWarehouse listed the reel as only having 8 total bearings whilst Shimano USA confirmed there were 9 total. This made everyone think they only used single bearing main shaft support at first. This was a typo, and still is on their website. That being said, the bearing count on both Bantams is 9 total (2 pinion, 2 spool, 2 main shaft, 2 handle, and 1 anti reverse). Infinity Drive (for spinning) is a polymer bushing and a special coating on the pinion that facilitates easier, smoother rotation. Actually it helps the pinion rotate around the rotor shaft and smoothens/strengthens their interaction overall. So I assume on a baitcaster it is a similar mechanism. Maybe the inside of the pinion gear (where shaft inserts) has a special coating on both sides or is sleeved with a polymer to achieve the same result. I would assume it would be difficult to insert a polymer into a fully metal pinion from an engineering standpoint so they probably coat both the inside of the pinion and spool shaft on the Bantam to get that rotation benefit. As for what I said about the Conquest, I guess the extra main shaft bearing has nothing to do with Infinity Drive after all.

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by dennis_rf » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:38 am

You may find your answers in the „other“ Bantam thread:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=87500&sid=8b65846f ... 6f#p704163

Also in this graphic you can see where the load is supported aka where pinion and shaft are touching in the ocea jigger. Should be the similar in the Bantam / Calcutta conquest, with them keeping the 2 support bearing tho.
Making the inside of the pinion smoother in any kind wouldn’t help the retrieve, as when engaged both shaft and pinion turn interlocked as a unit. It would only be of benefit when casting but in the casting position there is no contact between the both anyways (well, ideally).

Image

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by tdm » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:58 am

dennis_rf wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:38 am
You may find your answers in the „other“ Bantam thread:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=87500&sid=8b65846f ... 6f#p704163

Also in this graphic you can see where the load is supported aka where pinion and shaft are touching in the ocea jigger. Should be the similar in the Bantam / Calcutta conquest, with them keeping the 2 support bearing tho.
Making the inside of the pinion smoother in any kind wouldn’t help the retrieve, as when engaged both shaft and pinion turn interlocked as a unit. It would only be of benefit when casting but in the casting position there is no contact between the both anyways (well, ideally).

Image
I was about to post this but you beat me to it:

I can fully understand how the Infinity Drive design works in a spinning reel and i agree that
it is a very useful feature, but implementing the same concept it in a baitcaster doesn't make
any sense to me since the pinion has to be free from any friction during casting "Super Free Spool"
as they call it, Once you start reeling, the pinion slides back to locked position together with
the spool so the need of a coating or bushing of some kind inside the pinion gear is somewhat useless.

So Infinity Drive in a spinning reel is totally different in a baitcaster, just my opinion.


I'm glad i'm not the only one thinking about this. :lol:

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by tdm » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:23 am

18 bantam spool shaft.
18ab.jpg
18ab.jpg (52.5 KiB) Viewed 6680 times
22 bantam spool shaft.
22a.jpg
22a.jpg (17.18 KiB) Viewed 6680 times
What do you guys think? :roll:

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by DirtyD64 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:34 pm

I should have been more clear that when reading I got my info from the new Stella. What you have all stated is true, that shouldn't matter as much on a casting reel. I was just speculating, didn't really know what to think. That Ocea reel almost looks as if it doesn't have true dual pinion support. I am pretty sure all the other casting reels we speak of do. Even thought the new Bantam doesn't list X-ship, I think it is there.

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by tdm » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:56 am

DirtyD64 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:34 pm
I should have been more clear that when reading I got my info from the new Stella. What you have all stated is true, that shouldn't matter as much on a casting reel. I was just speculating, didn't really know what to think. That Ocea reel almost looks as if it doesn't have true dual pinion support. I am pretty sure all the other casting reels we speak of do. Even thought the new Bantam doesn't list X-ship, I think it is there.
all good, we're all just trying to help each other and together we are learning :D , i guess there is another topic about the same thing in reels forum and that's great, I think. In my opinion micro module gears won't last without the x-ship, these two features will be locked in together for good unless something new comes around. I can't wait to get my hands on this new Bantam, i pre-ordered one already.

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by DirtyD64 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:48 pm

tdm wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:56 am
DirtyD64 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:34 pm
I should have been more clear that when reading I got my info from the new Stella. What you have all stated is true, that shouldn't matter as much on a casting reel. I was just speculating, didn't really know what to think. That Ocea reel almost looks as if it doesn't have true dual pinion support. I am pretty sure all the other casting reels we speak of do. Even thought the new Bantam doesn't list X-ship, I think it is there.
all good, we're all just trying to help each other and together we are learning :D , i guess there is another topic about the same thing in reels forum and that's great, I think. In my opinion micro module gears won't last without the x-ship, these two features will be locked in together for good unless something new comes around. I can't wait to get my hands on this new Bantam, i pre-ordered one already.
So after looking more, I think that wider spool shaft just better fits the pinion? I interestingly found this on my Steez A spool. I run a Zillion SV TW spool in it, and eventually noticed the Steez had a much wider spool shaft in the same area circled on the Bantam picture. Didn't make a difference for either one though.

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by Bantam1 » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:23 am

Infinity Drive on reels like Stella is there to reduce friction when winding under a load. The spool shaft can and does flex a little which will make contact with the pinion gear. The shaft is treated with a special coating, plus the bushing to reduce friction. It means you can wind easier under a heavy load.

I have not received specifics on the new Bantam about this. I will try to get more info this week. With my current role I am dealing more with the prototypes and other non feature specific information these days.

In the Conquest there are many small changes aside from adding a second bearing to the bottom of the driveshaft. All of these small changes help with the rotational feel of the reel both with and without a load. There are many intricacies with the Conquest and other reels like tolerances of parts. Several tolerances are held to around .0002" or less to achieve the feeling.

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by DirtyD64 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:53 am

Bantam1 wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:23 am
Infinity Drive on reels like Stella is there to reduce friction when winding under a load. The spool shaft can and does flex a little which will make contact with the pinion gear. The shaft is treated with a special coating, plus the bushing to reduce friction. It means you can wind easier under a heavy load.

I have not received specifics on the new Bantam about this. I will try to get more info this week. With my current role I am dealing more with the prototypes and other non feature specific information these days.

In the Conquest there are many small changes aside from adding a second bearing to the bottom of the driveshaft. All of these small changes help with the rotational feel of the reel both with and without a load. There are many intricacies with the Conquest and other reels like tolerances of parts. Several tolerances are held to around .0002" or less to achieve the feeling.
Not sure if you saw this, but this was something I noticed in another brand. These 2 spools are totally compatible yet one fits the pinion much more snug. People were noticing pictures of the old Bantam and 22 Bantam spools and thought they saw the same???

Image


Also I couldn't help but wonder if that Ocea Jigger reel lost X-ship? It would seem to be a negative to remove that from current reels that have the feature like the Conquest, Bantam, Metanium, etc. I assume from bearing counts though that this has not happened and will not if or when the technology trickles down from higher end models...

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by tdm » Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:03 pm

DirtyD64 wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:53 am
Bantam1 wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:23 am
Infinity Drive on reels like Stella is there to reduce friction when winding under a load. The spool shaft can and does flex a little which will make contact with the pinion gear. The shaft is treated with a special coating, plus the bushing to reduce friction. It means you can wind easier under a heavy load.

I have not received specifics on the new Bantam about this. I will try to get more info this week. With my current role I am dealing more with the prototypes and other non feature specific information these days.

In the Conquest there are many small changes aside from adding a second bearing to the bottom of the driveshaft. All of these small changes help with the rotational feel of the reel both with and without a load. There are many intricacies with the Conquest and other reels like tolerances of parts. Several tolerances are held to around .0002" or less to achieve the feeling.
Not sure if you saw this, but this was something I noticed in another brand. These 2 spools are totally compatible yet one fits the pinion much more snug. People were noticing pictures of the old Bantam and 22 Bantam spools and thought they saw the same???

Image


Also I couldn't help but wonder if that Ocea Jigger reel lost X-ship? It would seem to be a negative to remove that from current reels that have the feature like the Conquest, Bantam, Metanium, etc. I assume from bearing counts though that this has not happened and will not if or when the technology trickles down from higher end models...

Based on this schematic, looks like the x-ship and pinion bearings are still there. I'm pretty sure that the 22 Bantam will still have the x-ship even though it isn't listed as a feature.

2022-01-29 235022.jpg
2022-01-29 235022.jpg (47.02 KiB) Viewed 6290 times

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by DirtyD64 » Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:10 am

tdm wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:03 pm
DirtyD64 wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:53 am
Bantam1 wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:23 am
Infinity Drive on reels like Stella is there to reduce friction when winding under a load. The spool shaft can and does flex a little which will make contact with the pinion gear. The shaft is treated with a special coating, plus the bushing to reduce friction. It means you can wind easier under a heavy load.

I have not received specifics on the new Bantam about this. I will try to get more info this week. With my current role I am dealing more with the prototypes and other non feature specific information these days.

In the Conquest there are many small changes aside from adding a second bearing to the bottom of the driveshaft. All of these small changes help with the rotational feel of the reel both with and without a load. There are many intricacies with the Conquest and other reels like tolerances of parts. Several tolerances are held to around .0002" or less to achieve the feeling.
Not sure if you saw this, but this was something I noticed in another brand. These 2 spools are totally compatible yet one fits the pinion much more snug. People were noticing pictures of the old Bantam and 22 Bantam spools and thought they saw the same???

Image


Also I couldn't help but wonder if that Ocea Jigger reel lost X-ship? It would seem to be a negative to remove that from current reels that have the feature like the Conquest, Bantam, Metanium, etc. I assume from bearing counts though that this has not happened and will not if or when the technology trickles down from higher end models...

Based on this schematic, looks like the x-ship and pinion bearings are still there. I'm pretty sure that the 22 Bantam will still have the x-ship even though it isn't listed as a feature.


2022-01-29 235022.jpg
Couldn't see the entire schematic... I know generally reels with X-ship or Daiwa's free floating spool have 4 total for the spool/pinion. I guess you could have just one spool bearing? The Ocea Jigger promotion just really made it look like it lost a bearing. The promotion would make most think they removed a bearing and now the inner pinion holds that load. Maybe not a bad thing? But most associate loss of a bearing as bad and the picture was just a bit misleading that way. I assume the spool in the schematic has 2 bearings on it?

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Re: 22 Bantam MGL...

Post by tdm » Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:27 pm

DirtyD64 wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:10 am
tdm wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:03 pm
DirtyD64 wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:53 am
Bantam1 wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:23 am
Infinity Drive on reels like Stella is there to reduce friction when winding under a load. The spool shaft can and does flex a little which will make contact with the pinion gear. The shaft is treated with a special coating, plus the bushing to reduce friction. It means you can wind easier under a heavy load.

I have not received specifics on the new Bantam about this. I will try to get more info this week. With my current role I am dealing more with the prototypes and other non feature specific information these days.

In the Conquest there are many small changes aside from adding a second bearing to the bottom of the driveshaft. All of these small changes help with the rotational feel of the reel both with and without a load. There are many intricacies with the Conquest and other reels like tolerances of parts. Several tolerances are held to around .0002" or less to achieve the feeling.
Not sure if you saw this, but this was something I noticed in another brand. These 2 spools are totally compatible yet one fits the pinion much more snug. People were noticing pictures of the old Bantam and 22 Bantam spools and thought they saw the same???

Image


Also I couldn't help but wonder if that Ocea Jigger reel lost X-ship? It would seem to be a negative to remove that from current reels that have the feature like the Conquest, Bantam, Metanium, etc. I assume from bearing counts though that this has not happened and will not if or when the technology trickles down from higher end models...

Based on this schematic, looks like the x-ship and pinion bearings are still there. I'm pretty sure that the 22 Bantam will still have the x-ship even though it isn't listed as a feature.


2022-01-29 235022.jpg
Couldn't see the entire schematic... I know generally reels with X-ship or Daiwa's free floating spool have 4 total for the spool/pinion. I guess you could have just one spool bearing? The Ocea Jigger promotion just really made it look like it lost a bearing. The promotion would make most think they removed a bearing and now the inner pinion holds that load. Maybe not a bad thing? But most associate loss of a bearing as bad and the picture was just a bit misleading that way. I assume the spool in the schematic has 2 bearings on it?
You can view the original schematic at Shimano's website, but yes it shows 2 bearings for the pinion and 2 for the spool shaft,
3 total for the handle shaft including roller clutch bearing and 2 for the handle. Yes I agree about the promo pictures being a bit confusing that is why I always like to look at schematics, 22 Bantam schematics should be available soon I hope.

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