OG's vs copies

[Finnz922]

Two questions

1. I'm not up to speed on all things JDM, but what are some of the baits folks are mad at that the BIG brands are copying?

2. What are your opinions on copied baits? For reference not what Spro and Strike king did where they licensed or had rights from original companies to make copies.

[godshippy]

Pure Fishing is the one that everyone is calling Impure Fishing these days.

Berkley Gilly is a copy of the Issei Gill Flat

Berkley Nessie - Gan Craft Jointed Claw Shape-S

Rapala Crush City Bronco Bug - OSP Dolive Beaver

I have mixed feelings. A lot of JDM baits are just not available to the scale that Pure Fishing baits are; so it's hard for a lot of people to get their hands on them. The enthusiast will easily pay to have the JDM baits, but the average angler that's shopping in Bass Pro is not going to see these.

Take the Megabass Vision 110 for example--earlier on you didn't hear much about these, but now they're readily available just about anywhere and practically everyone knows what a Vision 110 is.

I've heard people say that this type of copying negatively affects innovation--I don't buy that. If your bait gets copied, then you're going to try and make something else to be at the top again. It does suck for the JDM maker though...

[reason162]

Berkley Nessie - Gan Craft Jointed Claw Shape-S

The Nessie is a knockoff of the Grow Design Works Flag.

There's really no ethical argument to be made for ripping off someone else's innovation and hard work, nor any legitimate excuse as consumers to buy knockoff products. You can tell yourself w/e you like to justify shitty behavior but morally it's pretty straight forward.

[Finnz922]

Berkley Nessie - Gan Craft Jointed Claw Shape-S

The Nessie is a knockoff of the Grow Design Works Flag.
There's really no ethical argument to be made for ripping off someone else's innovation and hard work
, nor any legitimate excuse as consumers to buy knockoff products. You can tell yourself w/e you like to justify shitty behavior but morally it's pretty straight forward.

I agree and couldn't knowingly by a knockoff anymore especially after Luck E Strike 110. What sparked my question, was somewhat in defense of your second point about consumers. I personally don't know how to follow JDM baits and stay up to date on what is out and what is coming out. I used to work in BPS and Cabela's for almost a dozen years, been a subscriber to Bassmaster magazine, as well as followed ICAST. So that being said, maybe not many on this site, but how would one know a bait is copied? I had never heard of Grow Design Works Flag until recently. Now while I'm not a fan of Pure Fishing so I wouldn't buy their products, others are fans and may have no idea they are buying knock-offs.

Another thing I see is that "Pros" spew that they tested and retested baits as well as gave input to these companies before release and maybe that is true. Now let me be clear, I'm not defending, but isn't it possible that they did test the baits and did offer feedback while NOT knowing the bait was actually being fine tuned more so because the type of plastic or slight design change to make sure it "looked like a big brand" bait?

Really, it's on these companies to hold themselves to a higher standard and up to anglers to educate their fellow anglers and friends if they are aware of blatant ripoffs. Lastly, and unfortunately, price and availability for some will always be a deciding factor. Which is why I appreciate the Spro/KGB collaboration and Strike King/Strike Pro licensing agreement.

[godshippy]

Berkley Nessie - Gan Craft Jointed Claw Shape-S

The Nessie is a knockoff of the Grow Design Works Flag.

Yes, that's the one! Similar to the Gan Craft too though--I dunno, if you look across JDM baits they all have very similar offerings too.

I found that watching The Hook Up Tackle YouTube channel that you end up getting a lot of info on JDM baits.

Instagram is another way if you follow some tackle shops or anglers, and you get recommendations all the time on who to follow as well.

[uljersey]

There are but a handful of truly original bait designs. Pretty much any billed crankbait can be traced back to Fred Young and countless other bait builders back in the late 50's and beyond. Slender minnow baits have been around for well over 100 years. Megabass may have perfected the concept and tweaked the action but at the end of the day it's still nothing more than a slender minnow bait.

My point being, careful who you wag your finger at as there are many grey areas that don't have a clear cut answer. In the end you have to go with your beliefs and vote with your wallet but don't have any delusions about who came out with what first. It can be a slippery slope.

[reason162]

I agree and couldn't knowingly by a knockoff anymore especially after Luck E Strike 110. What sparked my question, was somewhat in defense of your second point about consumers. I personally don't know how to follow JDM baits and stay up to date on what is out and what is coming out. I used to work in BPS and Cabela's for almost a dozen years, been a subscriber to Bassmaster magazine, as well as followed ICAST. So that being said, maybe not many on this site, but how would one know a bait is copied? I had never heard of Grow Design Works Flag until recently. Now while I'm not a fan of Pure Fishing so I wouldn't buy their products, others are fans and may have no idea they are buying knock-offs.

Another thing I see is that "Pros" spew that they tested and retested baits as well as gave input to these companies before release and maybe that is true. Now let me be clear, I'm not defending, but isn't it possible that they did test the baits and did offer feedback while NOT knowing the bait was actually being fine tuned more so because the type of plastic or slight design change to make sure it "looked like a big brand" bait?

Really, it's on these companies to hold themselves to a higher standard and up to anglers to educate their fellow anglers and friends if they are aware of blatant ripoffs. Lastly, and unfortunately, price and availability for some will always be a deciding factor. Which is why I appreciate the Spro/KGB collaboration and Strike King/Strike Pro licensing agreement.

You don't need an encyclopedic knowledge of JDM baits, if the ripoff is egregious as in the case with the Nessie someone on the internet will let you know lol. The pros might or might not realize during "testing" (if that even happens), but they certainly know now, and none of them as far as I can see have the integrity to call a spade a spade - just more bullshit excuses. I'm sure they'll be thrilled when people discover aliexpress copies of their sponsored baits

[reason162]

There are but a handful of truly original bait designs. Pretty much any billed crankbait can be traced back to Fred Young and countless other bait builders back in the late 50's and beyond. Slender minnow baits have been around for well over 100 years. Megabass may have perfected the concept and tweaked the action but at the end of the day it's still nothing more than a slender minnow bait.

My point being, careful who you wag your finger at as there are many grey areas that don't have a clear cut answer. In the end you have to go with your beliefs and vote with your wallet but don't have any delusions about who came out with what first. It can be a slippery slope.

It's a matter of degree, sure, but that doesn't mean people don't recognize obvious, blatant design theft when they see it.

It also matters if the "inspired" product actually improves upon the original. Megabass added a weight transfer system to their jerkbait. Paint that was unheard of this side of the pond at the time. Not to mention the complex action of the bait itself.

The Nessie is in almost every way a downgrade from the original Flag - worse action, worse color schemes, worse hardware.

[dennis_rf]

It’s quite interesting - amongst us there’s a varying ability to recognize patterns and design features. I’ve got a friend who fishes all major JDM hardbait brands, started way before me but to this day can’t tell if it’s a Duo, Lucky Craft or Megabass when he sees a product picture without a logo. He just can’t pick up on for example what I’d call the signature duo face / gill plate. They all look the same to him but some catch better or worse. I on the other hand believe I can tell who made a bait just from the design features.
So when evaluating if sth is a direct copy, my friend wouldn’t agree as easily and I‘d pick up on subtle things and call em out for that.
I’m wondering about law here too:
I remember Berkley vs Rapala over the Frenzy Popper / Skitter Pop, which I really can’t wrap my head round how they won, just based on the transparency of the cup?
Holding Rapala by their own standard, they wouldn’t be allowed to sell the bronco bug, which is 95% identical to the OSP in my eyes.

[LowRange]

It's like this but reels and fishing lures.

[jmb27]

What are your opinions on copied baits? For reference not what Spro and Strike king did where they licensed or had rights from original companies to make copies.

It seems to be the nature of fishing.

The Senko is on the short list for most copied baits ever.

Rad Lures had the original chatterbait that "blew up overnight" with the success on the tournament trail and couldn't handle the demand and needed corresponding massive ramp up in production. Enter Zman to buy the rights to the lure and spend way too much time enforcing the copyright design of actually better made versions (like the OG phoenix) as Zman choose to use the cheapest components possible to cash in on the popularity. Of course, that one has some full circle to an extent as Zman has seemed to finally learn that if you build a really good product/let someone else use the copyright (like the Evergreen Jackhammer version), it will sell itself.

Berkley rarely seems to make a product that isn't a knock off of someone elses. It seems the majority of their business model is for tournament pros to use knockoffs for them to sell rather than coming up with something new.

For me personally, I have had much more fishing success using the original senko or MB 110 as opposed to cheaper knockoffs.

[DirtyD64]

Anyone mention Keitech yet? Seems they got popular then ringed paddletails were EVERYWHERE and everyone had their version...

[Finnz922]

It was my post, but the more I think about the state of ingenuity in the industry and the desperation for brands to be able to fill every spot in your tacklebox with every type of bait wreaks of desperation to stay relevant. The fact of the matter is that things were better when brands didn't offer everything and you had to go to Spro for frogs, War Eagle for spinnerbaits, Yamamoto for Senkos, etc. It allowed for more diversity in brands and kept the small brands relevant. Now with these big conglomerates buying everyone up and shrinking the market. We run the risk of small brands being priced out of the market. If it weren't for the enthusiast, I'm not sure where will end up. Just because a big company has the means to mass produce doesn't mean they should borrow, steal, or whatever someone wants to call it to help them sleep better at night. I would like them to partner with these other brands and create a collab bait. Maybe that happens and the small companies or JDM ones just don't share that info.