Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

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MK49
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Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by MK49 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:23 pm

25 years ago, I found a perfect topwater rod for 1/4oz poopers to 3/8oz poppers and walkers. It's THE Rio Rico rod for me. With this rod and Rio Rico, I've caught over 1,000 bass, including two 10 pounders and probably about 100 bass over 6lbs. It does work very well up to 1/2oz walkers and wake bait. It's the Daiwa Light and Tough Topwater/Twiching rod (by George Cochran). It was so good that I bought 2 more.

It's great, but I felt it's kind of old, and thought maybe, the newer rods would be better. So, I've been trying to replace it for the last 15 years or so without success. I bought a Daiwa Steez (supposedly, designed for topwater) and some other rods. A few weeks ago, I bought an Abu Garcia Fantasista Premier Medium Light rod, hoping it would be better than the 25yrs old Daiwa for 3/8oz topwater baits. I fished with it 5 mornings. It casts better, probably because it's a few inches longer. I actually liked it better for jerkbaits and scroungers. It weighs about the same as the Daiwa. But, I just couldn't move Rio Rico and One's Bug the same way. Those two, especially Rio Rico were my go to poppers for very long time, and I know how I want to fish with them. The same thing with 3/8oz walkers like Gun Fish. Those lures just don't move like they used to with the new rod. I kept trying to adjust, but I think five mornings were enough. I think I'm going back to the 25yrs old Daiwa rod again. It's good and bad. It's good, because I found a perfect rod, and I have 3 of them. It's bad, because I can't replace them with newer and supposedly, better rods, and I've wasted over $1,000, just trying to replace my favorite rod. :(

I love 1/2oz walkers, like Megabass Giant Dog X, Evergreen SB and Heddon Super Spook Jr. The Daiwa works fine with them, but about 13 or 14 years ago, I found a perfect one. It's the Dobyns Champion Series 682C Medium action rod. Again, I bought two more, after trying the first one. I bought a Dobyns 683C Medium Heavy for 3/4oz walkers like the Original Zara Spook. I didn't like it much, so I tried a Dobyns 703C, and it's perfect. 683C is 6'8" and 703C is 7'. I guess 4" difference is a big deal.

Anyway, the reason why I started writing this post was because different rods, even with the similar stiffness, the lures don't move the same way. And, I was surprised by that. If I didn't buy the old Daiwa rod, most likely, I would've been a different fisher man. I don't think I rely so much on topwater, if I didn't buy this Daiwa rod 25yrs ago. So, in a way, this rod established my style. I spend probably over 50% of the time throwing topwater baits. When nothing gets a bite, I throw topwater, even when it's 100 degree in a middle of a sunny day or 40 degree cold morning in Feb. I did catch a bass with Rio Rico in Feb, when I couldn't get a bite with finesse fishing. That did surprised me, though.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by GOOD YEAR 71 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:45 pm

Irony at it’s finest… There are only so many ways to do the same thing and fishing is no different. It’s mass you seek. Mass moves mass. It's physics. I’m probably going to get counter argument to this, but way I see things is even if we manage to find taper and handle, but blank is too light, then adequate energy doesn’t exist. Energy is absorbed and/or transmits to handle for ‘sensitivity’ so often touted a main goal. Which it should not. Certainly not for topwater, for the love of sanity we can SEE the strike so how much ‘sensitivity’ do we really need? I mean, come on…

I hardly bring it up, but I do not care for many of today’s offerings for this very reason. Several well-known manufacturers are on my ‘do not buy anymore’ list for this very reason. I generally don’t care about ‘light’ and save for slack line presentation I generally don’t care about ‘sensitivity’ either. What I want is light enough, sensitive enough, and that’s all. Taper, handle length, comfort, balance, reliability, these attributes all come before total weight. And usually before sensitivity, depending as stated previous. I’m not going into which manufacturers I’m out on but trust me there are more than a handful. I’m with you, I understand your plight.
PEACE

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by slipperybob » Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:54 pm

This is where I think what's great for one person may no necessarily be great for another. As we all have different hand size and forms, we all have different level of sensitivity in feel.

I'm more particular for ice fishing rods and I really don't follow the "quick tip" fad as of late. It goes to where the tip is soft and it absorbs the bite strike feel. Sure one can see it, but not feeling it also means that sometimes one is not seeing it either. I rather feel it. With such short rods and visually tip watching that close to one's face, there's more than just tip watching. One can also line watch. There are various methods but it's like paying attention to everything. The whole line from the rod tip down into the ice hole. The actual bend on the line at the rod tip. The line form from the reel and in between the line guides to the tip guide.

When the fish are biting it doesn't matter. When the fish are not biting and they get really particular in presentation. Yeah, subtle changes at times is the difference between a hook up or none at all.
slip bobbing is the laziest way to fish

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by MK49 » Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:16 pm

It's funny. I was just reading reviews on Tackle Warehouse. One guy said this popper walks great. The other guy said it doesn't walk very well. They're talking about the same popper. It would be very interesting to hear from these two guys, if they use the same exact rod and line with this popper.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by LowRange » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:24 pm

You could try a 6'8" St Croix topwater rod. They have super soft XF tips.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by doomtrprz71 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:09 am

I'll second the St Croix, that's my popper rod now for freshwater bass fishing. I went custom in the salt.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by LowRange » Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:33 pm

It really comes down to what is it that makes the old rod special and then trying to find those attributes in a modern rod.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by slipperybob » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:13 pm

LowRange wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:24 pm
You could try a 6'8" St Croix topwater rod. They have super soft XF tips.
That's kind of weird as to why did St. Croix renamed their topwater rod as a jerkbait rod. :lol: To me it will always be a topwater rod, even though I had that LE before I got the tip heavy topwater LT model.
slip bobbing is the laziest way to fish

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by dragon1 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:48 pm

The other consideration is to take one of your beloved Daiwa Topwater rods and have the guides stripped and replaced with lighter/lower guides that have a harder/more slick ceramic insert. You will have to keep the exact same guide placement settings, unless you don't mind having a few (uncovered) marks on the rod blank, if you choose to have the custom rod builder test load and "properly" reset new guides.

You can also ask the custom builder to test load the rod and record the data, and then see whether there is a blank out there that closely matches it...you can then have a killer custom built to closely match the Daiwa topwater rod.

Here is an article where George Cochran discloses his Daiwa Light and Tough Topwater rod was actually "customized" in Japan:. https://www.bassfan.com/news_article/1410/news.asp

Just a couple rambling thoughts.
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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by DirtyD64 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:41 am

LowRange wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:24 pm
You could try a 6'8" St Croix topwater rod. They have super soft XF tips.
See I don't have super high end rods, but I rarely use topwater. I use an Avid X 6'6"M, fast action. Using it with Sunline Super Natural in 16lb makes a pretty good combo. I think a 6'8" M would be even better, not sure about the extra fast action though. Just seems to me each brand has a variation of what extra fast is.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by MK49 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:28 pm

dragon1 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:48 pm
The other consideration is to take one of your beloved Daiwa Topwater rods and have the guides stripped and replaced with lighter/lower guides that have a harder/more slick ceramic insert. You will have to keep the exact same guide placement settings, unless you don't mind having a few (uncovered) marks on the rod blank, if you choose to have the custom rod builder test load and "properly" reset new guides.

You can also ask the custom builder to test load the rod and record the data, and then see whether there is a blank out there that closely matches it...you can then have a killer custom built to closely match the Daiwa topwater rod.

Here is an article where George Cochran discloses his Daiwa Light and Tough Topwater rod was actually "customized" in Japan:. https://www.bassfan.com/news_article/1410/news.asp

Just a couple rambling thoughts.
Thanks for the info and the link. I just read the article. His "custom" topwater rod is different from my Light and Tough. HIs is 6' and mine is 6'6". It does say "by George Cochran", though. They probably have the very similar taper and the stiffness, though.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by MK49 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:59 pm

I went to my garage, and checked some of my old rods that I haven't used for years. I found an All Star Zell Roland Topwater rod. I think this one is also about 25 years old, and I remember it worked similar to the Daiwa Light and Tough Topwater rod. I preferred the Daiwa, but this Zell Roland rod was a good one for the same purpose.

Edit: I just Google searched Zell Roland Topwater, and found this rod, Impulse Zell Rowland Topwater. I've never heard of the company, Impulse, but this seems to be an updated version of my old Zell Roland rod. It's a few inches longer, but the similar spec. Maybe, I should try this one next. Or, save my money, and keep using the old Daiwa. :)

Edit2: I searched "Zell Roland" on YouTube, and found this video. He's using the Impulse rod. This cranking popper looks very interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErQFVQHEX38

Speaking of Zell Roland, my friend fished with Kevin VanDam about 10 years ago. He lives in Indiana, booked a guide in Michigan, and went there for smallmouth fishing. The guide said "my friend is here. Do you wanna fish with him?" That friend was KVD. My friend said Kevin always had topwater ready. My friend is primary a soft plastic guy, so he doesn't have topwater ready most of the time, even though I told him I have a popper and a walker ready all day long many times. He just doesn't believe in topwater. As soon as they saw some surface activities, Kevin threw a walking bait (my friend said Kevin casted like a machine), and half the time, he caught fish. My friend didn't have a towwater ready, so it was all Kevin catching those fish.

Anyway, when my friend told me about the KVD story, I told him that I'd rather fish with Zell Roland, so I could see if he's doing anything different, and hopefully, learn something from him. Zell seems to be a real nice guy, too. Fishing with KVD must be awesome, though.
Last edited by MK49 on Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by MK49 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:09 pm

LowRange wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:24 pm
You could try a 6'8" St Croix topwater rod. They have super soft XF tips.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've never owned a rod with XF taper. I don't think it'll work for me.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by doomtrprz71 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:36 pm

MK49 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:09 pm
LowRange wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:24 pm
You could try a 6'8" St Croix topwater rod. They have super soft XF tips.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've never owned a rod with XF taper. I don't think it'll work for me.
Looks like those old rods were fiberglass, you may be better off getting an iconoglass blank from NFC and having it cut down.

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Re: Rod Is Probably the Most Important for Topwater (or Any Style of Fishing)

Post by SteveSchmelzle » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:33 am

MK49 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:59 pm
I went to my garage, and checked some of my old rods that I haven't used for years. I found an All Star Zell Roland Topwater rod. I think this one is also about 25 years old, and I remember it worked similar to the Daiwa Light and Tough Topwater rod. I preferred the Daiwa, but this Zell Roland rod was a good one for the same purpose.

Edit: I just Google searched Zell Roland Topwater, and found this rod, Impulse Zell Rowland Topwater. I've never heard of the company, Impulse, but this seems to be an updated version of my old Zell Roland rod. It's a few inches longer, but the similar spec. Maybe, I should try this one next. Or, save my money, and keep using the old Daiwa. :)

Edit2: I searched "Zell Roland" on YouTube, and found this video. He's using the Impulse rod. This cranking popper looks very interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErQFVQHEX38

Speaking of Zell Roland, my friend fished with Kevin VanDam about 10 years ago. He lives in Indiana, booked a guide in Michigan, and went there for smallmouth fishing. The guide said "my friend is here. Do you wanna fish with him?" That friend was KVD. My friend said Kevin always had topwater ready. My friend is primary a soft plastic guy, so he doesn't have topwater ready most of the time, even though I told him I have a popper and a walker ready all day long many times. He just doesn't believe in topwater. As soon as they saw some surface activities, Kevin threw a walking bait (my friend said Kevin casted like a machine), and half the time, he caught fish. My friend didn't have a towwater ready, so it was all Kevin catching those fish.

Anyway, when my friend told me about the KVD story, I told him that I'd rather fish with Zell Roland, so I could see if he's doing anything different, and hopefully, learn something from him. Zell seems to be a real nice guy, too. Fishing with KVD must be awesome, though.
I'd fish with Zell over KVD 100% of the time.

Zell is a top water hero.

His line of topwater excalibur series lures in the 90's were second to none (and that includes today). His Rebel PopR Zell Rowland series has caught me more bass than any other lure or technique.

A day on the water with the master would be a dream come true. I wouldn't even fish...just watch him.
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