Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by hoohoorjoo » Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:32 am

LowRange wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:12 am
hoohoorjoo wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:43 am
LowRange wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:37 am
Freddie wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:51 pm
I’m going to resurrect this because this just totally makes sense here. I didn’t understand air break/SV brakes until now. This also makes me want to get a magforce z spool for my new zillion.
But which one? Magforce Z spools have their own unique braking profiles from heavy braking to fast spools.
For me, the og steez 100 spool was a great distance caster.
Isn't that a Type R? Those were a but fast in the old week magnet Steez. I bet they are good in a modern Steez platform.
No, the Steez 103 is the type r+, which is Magforce V variant. The Steez 100 is a flat-bottom spool, which is Mag Z.
Try not to let your mind wander. It is much too small to be outside unsupervised.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by CFDoc » Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:44 am

So this weekend I hooked up my SV Boost spool out of my Zillion SV TW to my Dremel. The inductor did not move outwards at all for any speed I could run it at.

If someone has a YouTube account, PM me your email address and I can send you a video I took of the spool spinning like crazy and the inductor not moving outwards at all.

I was going to start another thread on just the SV Boost braking system. I've been doing a lot of research on it and I'm pretty sure the system is modeled after what's known as a Double Sided Permanent Magnet Radial Flux Eddy Current Braking System.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by LowRange » Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:16 am

CFDoc wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:44 am
So this weekend I hooked up my SV Boost spool out of my Zillion SV TW to my Dremel. The inductor did not move outwards at all for any speed I could run it at.

If someone has a YouTube account, PM me your email address and I can send you a video I took of the spool spinning like crazy and the inductor not moving outwards at all.

I was going to start another thread on just the SV Boost braking system. I've been doing a lot of research on it and I'm pretty sure the system is modeled after what's known as a Double Sided Permanent Magnet Radial Flux Eddy Current Braking System.
That's likely because its an SV spool and does not have centrifugal blocks inside the spool to extend the inductor. SV spools use the magnets to twist the inductor and it's this twisting of the two ramps that extends the inductor outwards. No magnets then no twisting.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by CFDoc » Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:39 am

I agree completely, LowRange. The SV Boost system is using the induced magnetic field to twist the inductor relative to the spool, not centrifugal force.

I had to see it for myself to believe it.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by jvelth74 » Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:46 pm

In the beginning of cast it's very fast acceleration and by (inductor's) momentum of inertia creates moment to inductor ramp which creates axial force as a result, which extends twisting inductor.

And when twisting inductor is extended, it's the magnetic braking force that keeps its extended, until braking moment decreases and resulting axial force is smaller than spring rate.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by LowRange » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:27 pm

jvelth74 wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:46 pm
In the beginning of cast it's very fast acceleration and by (inductor's) momentum of inertia creates moment to inductor ramp which creates axial force as a result, which extends twisting inductor.

And when twisting inductor is extended, it's the magnetic braking force that keeps its extended, until braking moment decreases and resulting axial force is smaller than spring rate.
Yep except on non boost SV spools the inductor would stay extended for a very long time at middle dial settings when paired to the harder casting US anglers are known for. This lead to widespread belief that SV spools were overbraked or "choked off at the end of the cast". This lead to the development of SV Boost to free the spool at the end of the cast by having a dual rate spring drop the inductor into a mid position.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by CFDoc » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:57 pm

jvelth74 wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:46 pm
In the beginning of cast it's very fast acceleration and by (inductor's) momentum of inertia creates moment to inductor ramp which creates axial force as a result, which extends twisting inductor.
Why wouldn’t the immediate build up of emf be enough to twist the inductor? Why would it have to be acceleration driven?

I ask because (1) the spool and the inductor are both accelerated and it’s the difference in those speeds that causes twisting, and (2) I hooked my SV Boost spool up to my Dremel and cranked from zero to high and never could get the inductor to extend.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by jvelth74 » Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 am

CFDoc wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:57 pm
jvelth74 wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:46 pm
In the beginning of cast it's very fast acceleration and by (inductor's) momentum of inertia creates moment to inductor ramp which creates axial force as a result, which extends twisting inductor.
Why wouldn’t the immediate build up of emf be enough to twist the inductor? Why would it have to be acceleration driven?

I ask because (1) the spool and the inductor are both accelerated and it’s the difference in those speeds that causes twisting, and (2) I hooked my SV Boost spool up to my Dremel and cranked from zero to high and never could get the inductor to extend.
Please be careful with your Dremel experiments. I know one person who damaged his spool like that! But sounds weird that you didn't get enough spool acceleration with Dremel to extend inductor.

But in casting spool accelerates very fast, let's say in 1/100 of sec or 1/10 sec, and acceleration is fastest in the very beginning, so torque (because of momentum of inertia of inductor) is significant in a inductor ramp. And in the very beginning when spool starts to turn, value of magnetic brake is low and therefore momentum of magnetic brake is low.

I think it's at least very hard to cast with so slow spool acceleration that it doesn't launch sv style spool inductor. Maybe possible with long rod, heavy lure, max brake. But if possibly to cast like that, then it's magnetic forces that launches sv style inductor.
Last edited by jvelth74 on Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by jvelth74 » Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:54 am

LowRange wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:27 pm
Yep except on non boost SV spools the inductor would stay extended for a very long time at middle dial settings when paired to the harder casting US anglers are known for. This lead to widespread belief that SV spools were overbraked or "choked off at the end of the cast". This lead to the development of SV Boost to free the spool at the end of the cast by having a dual rate spring drop the inductor into a mid position.
Thats true! I would like to see Boost brake as well in BFS spools but I'm unsure will that never be happen. GekkaBijin Air is some kind of 'distance oriented' BFS reel, and I think it would benefit Boost brake. When really trying cast long with a minimium Magforce setting of it (which tends to be '4' for me), I sometimes get backlash in the middle or after the middle of cast, when inductor retracts. So in these cases there's too big difference in positions of inductor. With that reel I get longest distance with low setting of magnetic brake and a little high cast. Lower and harder cast with Magforce setting '5' are shorter.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by CFDoc » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:34 am

jvelth74 wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:45 am

Please be careful with your Dremel experiments. I know one person who damaged his spool like that! But sounds weird that you didn't get enough spool acceleration with Dremel to extend inductor.

But in casting spool accelerates very fast, let's say in 1/100 of sec or 1/10 sec, and acceleration is fastest in the very beginning, so torque (because of momentum of inertia of inductor) is significant in a inductor ramp. And in the very beginning when spool starts to turn, value of magnetic brake is low and therefore momentum of magnetic brake is low.
Noted! In one of my videos, the dremel cranks up and the spool starts going really fast. Then my collet snaps and the spool goes flying. Luckily it didn’t hit anything hard. Fun to play around with though.

And I definitely agree with what you’re saying in principle. I could see how at the very onset of acceleration, the inertia of the inductor would cause twisting relative to the spool. I was just surprised I couldn’t seem to make it happen with my Dremel.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by LowRange » Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:09 am

:lol:

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by jvelth74 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:09 am

jvelth74 wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:16 am
Not Magforce-Z, but sv-Boost:
https://jdmfishing.com/vault/boost-system/

Daiwa tells some revolutions:

The induct rotor of SV BOOST reaches the braking force 2, that is, stage 3 at once during the full cast. Spool rotation 15000 rpm (* 1 minute rotation speed) or more instantly applies braking force to control excessive rotation.
...
A weak braking force is applied in the range of 5000 rpm to prevent excessive line emission, and it is completely turned off just before landing.

Silly that they haven't said a word of acceleration. I concider that also sv-Boost spools inductor is launched by acceleration generated moment and twisting action in the inductor ramp. But maybe Daiwa marketing persons have thought that's not important :D
Newer video:

In the timing of 2:30 is said:
"When casting for maximum distance the brake is activated when the two levels of induct rotor are simultaneously extended."
-Which makes sense to me.


But what is non-sense (and not in line with quotation above!) are following illustrative(?) charts: Please look at timing of 1:40 and 2:40. In there they argue that SV-spool and SV-Boost spools inductor takes by 1/3 of cast to pop out! What kind of joke is that? Only some marketing hype? :roll: I think nothing could explain such behavior of Air inductor not to pop out immediately in the very beginning of launch (because of rapid spool acceleration and inductors momentum of inertia makes it to twist), but to pop out in a 1/3 cast... And moreover to that, (lure's) air resistance is proportional to V^2 and because of curved shape of throwing motion (change of potential energy during cast), lure deceleration is fastest in the beginning of cast, so maximum braking force is needed immediately after launch...So I really just can't understand idea of out moving inductor hypothetically during 1/3 of cast...

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by LowRange » Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:15 am

The Daiwa animations for their inductor operation have always been like that. They show the spool slowly rotating ipbon speed from a stop when in reality the acceleration from a stop to getting the inductor out in a cast is near instantaneous. It just makes for a better animation.

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by jvelth74 » Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:09 pm

LowRange wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:15 am
The Daiwa animations for their inductor operation have always been like that. They show the spool slowly rotating ipbon speed from a stop when in reality the acceleration from a stop to getting the inductor out in a cast is near instantaneous. It just makes for a better animation.
Thanks! I agree. Obviously Daiwa's animations are not meant to make any conclusions like when inductor actually moves from where to there or how long spool last to accelerate full speed... I think those animations main focus is to show off absorbing and moreover just to sell reels, not to deeply show technology how it precisely works. Also I think it's possible that Daiwa makes their videos purposely wrong to make it harder to China producers to copy :-D

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Re: Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

Post by jvelth74 » Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:37 pm

More in-accurant and misleading information in there: https://jdmfishing.com/vault/boost-system/

For me it's clear that SV spool inductor is launched immediately in a very beginning of spool start (by spool fast acceleration / inductor Inertia). Obviously also SV-Boost spool inductor is launched similarly like above described "When casting for maximum distance the brake is activated when the two levels of induct rotor are simultaneously extended." Also following is possible: 1.st stage of SV-Boost inductor is launched immediately in the first 1/4 turn of spool, but 2.nd spring is that stiff that it's hard to fully compress by spool inertia and because of that it is compressed only partially, and further compress is up to brake momentum. But anyway it's nature of Air style inductor, it moves fast, almost immediately, and notwithstanding of direction where it is going, and that is because of Air style inductor could not find balance when move has begun. Basic sv spool inductor founds balance only fully in or fully out. SV-Boost inductor has also one more balance point in the middle, where only weak spring is compressed.

And as commonly known, Air style inductor is kept extended by brake momentum, which creates torque to inductor ramp, which is angled, which creates axial force as a result. Inductor is kept extended as long as this brake momentum generated force is greater than spring force. And because brake momentum is spool revolutions x Magforce setting, it's the Magforce setting that dictates revolutions when inductor retracts. Because of that there is as many rpm's for Air inductor to move as there is settings of Magforce, not only single spool rpm! And because of that claim of:
Spool rotation 15000 rpm (* 1 minute rotation speed) or more instantly applies braking force to control excessive rotation.
is missleading! At 15000 rpm might happen something, but only with certain setting of Magforce!

Also there is silly describer: Image
which doesn't show that crazy slow start of cast than above, but still way too slow start for sv Spool anyway (maybe 10x too slow). And what's silliest in this, it claims that Air style inductor results in 67% higher revolutions in a start than fixed style inductor. :D (Inductor is launched in a very beginning of cast and after that, in a spool startup, it behaves precise exactly as fixed inductor.)

I have looked my BFS casting from video. In there spool acceleration happens in a something 1/100 time of cast. Acceleration might be longer, but 1/10 of cast is really slow in case of sv-spool, which are pretty light.

Idea of casting brake is spool control, because lure slows down by Air drag and also and in the beginning of cast by earth gravity. Casting brake is not meant to brake spool down more than necessary. But in average cast spool might be braked down by magnetic brake by 30% of rotational energy (and some part of lure kinetic energy, to keep line aligned). And if spool start is 1/100 of duration of cast, maximum that any casting brake can affect to start speed is 0,3%. And if considering really slow start (1/10 of cast) maximum effect of casting brake is respectively 3%. These are theoretically maximum's that fixed magnetic brake could tame down starting speed. So it's 0,3%...3% where it can be tried to be 'spared' by moving inductor. And because brake force is not 0 when inductor is fully retracted and certainly it's not 0 when inductor is moving, whole 0,3%...3% can't be 'spared'. Because of that it's realistic said that moving inductor might add start speed by something +1%. ...Claiming to having +67% more lure speed is simply ridiculous and out from reality!

Maybe there's more non-sense in this article, but these I spotted immediately....But now I found that everything is not wrong in describer. Because it shows truthfully that there's no difference in launch speed in SV vs. SV-Boost. (Difference to fixed inductor is different story, and wrongness of it is described above.)

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