Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

[jvelth74]

There was a good discussion of is there pulling (or pushing) forces between inductor and magnets. Fishing Discoveries spins a yarn of it and also test it in a practical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh56wxgo-ME&t=115s

Notice how there's an equal and opposite North-South Polarity. There's no attraction force pulling the brake shoes upwards the spool. I frustratingly proved that to myself by dangling Banks of neodymium magnets next to rotating spool and could not get the moving spool to attract the magnets at all.

Forces.jpg (50.51 KiB) Viewed 1872 times

FTB brake is not topic in here, but this is how it works:
Magnets are installed in (slightly) tilting arm, which is connected to pivot point and in the other end there is spring. There's not attractive forces, exactly like in video was said. But there is brake torque. Magnets are in D2, which is bigger than D1, where is pivot point, and therefore brake torque generates arm to be slightly tilted around pivot point, which compresses spring.

FTB brake.jpg (45.51 KiB) Viewed 1874 times

And cheap Aliexpress reels certainly are not topic in here. But like like said on a video, some Chinese manufacturers have messed up with LeftHand "FTB" reels and they have copied magnet arm wrongly in LH reel. Pivot point is in wrong side, which makes that in those reels "FTB" is not functional. Obviously this issue with non-working "FTB" in Chinese LH reels is large. As I know, it concerns Fishband GH100 reels and Black Knight II and I think these are not only ones. Interesting that Chinese has copied only RH reels and forget that LH is different Not sure but I think Kastking Kestrel Elite is OK also in LeftHand model, and should be, at that price tag.

[Slary]

FTB brake, Shimano's invention.
That is copied, by not understanding, how it works...for Fishband etc..

Kastking Kestrel is not using exactly same mechanism. (I have only looked youtube and selling pictures)
For me, it looks like magnet holder is not pivoting with axel at all. Looks like magnet holder is sliding against a spring. And magnet holder is having a wedge shape inside the arch. So that makes magnetholder going nearer the spool when it slides by spool rotation.

[LowRange]

FTB brake, Shimano's invention.
That is copied, by not understanding, how it works...for Fishband etc..

Kastking Kestrel is not using exactly same mechanism. (I have only looked youtube and selling pictures)
For me, it looks like magnet holder is not pivoting with axel at all. Looks like magnet holder is sliding against a spring. And magnet holder is having a wedge shape inside the arch. So that makes magnetholder going nearer the spool when it slides by spool rotation.

I belive this is how these ARK reels work too. They also use an adjustable fixed inductor too. Two weird aliexpress systems in one reel.

http://www.tackletour.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=88799

[jvelth74]

In a KK Kestrel both ends of magnetholder slides, but grooves for guiding pins are in different angle. Because of that magnetholder slides and tilts in a same time:

KastKing Kestrel Elite BFS.jpg (37.56 KiB) Viewed 1782 times

KastKing Kestrel elite is said being overbraked. In a video RaWr Fishing removes 2 magnet of it, but it is still overbraked. In a discussion of video is given better solution, which is just to remove other magnetholder and remove 50% of braking power.
And yes, acc. to video at least LH KK Kestrel brake is made in correct way. Now there still is a possibility that they have messed with RH reels

[Slary]

Okay, you looked better quality video. I did not see those guide holes very well.

But anyways, I am not sure what I saw, I was looking that inner circle and outer circle of magnetholder are not similar arcs together. I got image that inner circle is working like a wedge. It is leaning against something inside the brake assembly. And when sliding it is forced to move closer to spool.
Maybe that is the mechanic for moving and holes are only giving the limits, how much magnetholder can move..?

[jvelth74]

Maybe there's something inside (wedge mechanism) but necessary not, because it doesn't need anything more than those slots to adjust:

KK brake mechanism.jpg (15.62 KiB) Viewed 1761 times

Slots are not exactly same as in real reel but little adjustment of those makes significant change to magnetholder move.

[LowRange]

Maybe there's something inside (wedge mechanism) but necessary not, because it doesn't need anything more than those slots to adjust:
KK brake mechanism.jpg
Slots are not exactly same as in real reel but little adjustment of those makes significant change to magnetholder move.

There should be a ramp to the slots so that as the pieces move in the slots they get closer to the spool to increase braking. This would operate like Daiwa's Air Brake but in reverse. Instead of a rotating induction surface twisting and extending closer to the magnets, the rotating induction surgace twists the magnet holder and extends the magnet holder closer to the spool. The same effect is achieved but with different moving parts.

The advantage of this system is that there is less mass on the spool. The ramp mechanism and spring are absent from the spool in this design. The limitations would be that you are not able to adjust magnet field strength like Daiwa's Magforce. You still have a fixed field strength magnet assembly that uses proximity to increase braking and will require changing out magnet pairs or flipping magnets to change field strength. Daiwa uses both variable field controlled by the dial and proximity using the extending inductor.

I can see this system working well with BFS spools casting a narrow range of baits but it would be difficult to get it to work well with a large capacity spool I would think. You move the magnets to your desired proximity to the spool with the dial and then make a cast. On the cast the magnets move closer to the spool and back down to your dial setting position. It would seem like there would be less preset range to allow for the magnet assembly to move without making contact with the spool. Then again reels like my Black Max3 have 270° of dial travel so there is plenty of room to allow for range of adjustment and the travel of the magnet assembly on the cast if it has a fat palm plate.

[LowRange]

I see the KK reel has the magnets in the ID of the spool like FTB. The ARK appear to use an inductor from a Ray's Long Cast. I wonder of it uses a similar system to move magnets closer to the OD of the inductor. I belive the Doyo ParaMag moves a vertical assemble of magnets closer to the spool like an upright FTB. I don't have pictures of that but a cheap Kastking uses a similar system based on the description.

[Slary]

If you take a look of aliexpress sell page for Kestrel elite. There is a "picture" of dismantled brake.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004703808029.html

From that picture I got my idea of brakeholder's inner circle working like a wedge and thereby moving brakeholder closer to spool.

[LowRange]

On closer inspection maybe the KK Sharky3 is more crude than I thought. It appears to maybe use the dial to move the ring of button magnets closer to the spool per normal linear mag brake but also features an mini FTB to fox inside the ID of the spool that I assume is non adjustable or adjusts with the larger magnet ring? I may have to get one at $60 to find out. I'll reward interesting designs with a purchase if it catches my curiosity.

Maybe the upright FTB does not exist and all make use of magnets that ride near the surface of the spool either inside the ID of the spool of on the OD of a Daiwa style fixed inductor like how I assume the new ARK reels work (Cal why didn't you get a closer pic of that in the review ). That's the cool part of these reels.

[jvelth74]

Magnets are always fully inside spool in this KK Kestrel reel. If there happens some minor axial movement of magnets, it doesn't have any effect to braking torque. But when magnets are adjusted radially to closer to spool bottom, this changes brake torque significantly.

[LowRange]

If you take a look of aliexpress sell page for Kestrel elite. There is a "picture" of dismantled brake.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004703808029.html

From that picture I got my idea of brakeholder's inner circle working like a wedge and thereby moving brakeholder closer to spool.

Nice. That one is definitely an FTB clone. I am still curious as to how the ARK systems work. Doyo ParaMag is like FTB in that it rides on the ID of the rim of the spool rather than the arbor but it does move to and from the spool in a linear fashion according to the video I just saw from Doyo. This is different from FTB in that FTB does not move to and away from the spool along the axis of the spool shaft and instead increases in diameter to move closer to the ID of the spool arbor. ParaMag move to and away from the spool along the axis of the spool shaft. Sort of like an SV spool but moves a ring of magnets closer to the spool rim ID instead of moving and inductor into a magnet ring.





Maybe the ARK reels use the same system but cleverly use a Ray's Long Cast 4 position inductor to give an additional layer of adjustment. ParaMag but with an adjustable length spool rim essentially.

Honestly the KK Kestrel seems like a boring Aldebaran knock off. A big step up from the $30 chineasium ones that don't work if left handed but I just can't get excited about a knock off. At least the Doyo and ARK reels are doing something new. Even the KK Sharky3 is trying something different.

[LowRange]

This thing definitely uses an FTB brake. Same principal as all the other Air Brake like reels. The spool rotating in the presence of the magnets moves the magnets closer to the spool and then a spring pushes them away. Daiwa's patent must involve moving the rotor to the magnets because no one else is attempting this.

[Slary]

I would say, it is not correct to say "Kestrel is definetly using FTB brake".
Kestrel is using FAF brake and it is adjusting distance between spool and magnets, by different mechanism.
Ofcourse it looks like Kestrel is impressed of Shimano's FTB and trying to do something as good by their own way.
FAF is not a copy or clone of FTB.

Are those mentioned, Doyo's Pagamag or KK's Compensating Mag, adjusting on the throw or not?
If they don't adjust on the throw, like FTB, FAF or Daiwa's moving inductor style brakes, then not interesting to me right now.

[jvelth74]

Kestrel is using FAF brake and it is adjusting distance between spool and magnets, by different mechanism. Ofcourse it looks like Kestrel is impressed of Shimano's FTB and trying to do something as good by their own way. FAF is not a copy or clone of FTB.

FAF is 'evolution' from FTB. FTB is adjusted during cast by tilting magnetholder. FAF is adjusted during cast by moving + tilting magnetholder. I'm not sure is FTB patented, but I'm pretty sure that FAF dodges FTB patent - if it exists.