Thoughts on high end bfs?

How small is your rod and how light is your line? It's not about the size of your tackle, but how you work it. Come share your Ultralight and Bait Finesse System (BFS) fishing success here!
City17Banner
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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by City17Banner » Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:57 am

tincanary wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:48 am
City17Banner wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:11 am
ormet wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:50 am
I would love a few suggestion of higher end JDM (USDM is a hassle to get shipped to Sweden) offerings in production. Looking for a super sensitive rod for Jika/Free rig/link head/ned fishing for redfin perch in Europe.

Fishing (often semislack/slack) 4-6lb flouro with an Aldebaran BFS reel. If posibble for lures up to almost 3/8oz

Asked on Reddit and the only suggestion i got was Shimano Expride BFS. I have fished Expride and its very nice but cant help to think there are even better offerings out there.

TiA
From what you describe, there's only one JDM casting rod that meets your stringent requirements and it's readily available in Europe for not too much money. Please do not let the modest price tag fool you, the Valley Hill Raison Odessa rods are extremely underrated and the ROC-67MMM is the best rod in the series!

I own several hundred high end JDM rods and it's funny that this relatively affordable BFS/Mag Bass casting rod is better than 95% of the JDM rods I currently own from both an on-the-water performance perspective and in its exceptional build quality! I've been able to borrow my friend's rod (it's a 2015 rod model so very hard to find) several time over the last three seasons for smallmouth bass fishing in NW Wisconsin and have been fortunate enough to catch several 20" or 50cm smallmouth bass with this rod without any challenges. The rod can handle any lure or technique from 1/16oz-5/8oz or 1.8g-17.7g with no problems and the fit and finish is comparable to any of my Evergreen Kaleido Inspirare and Daiwa Steez Racing Design rods at a much more reasonable acquisition price.

Good luck with your BFS rod search!

Link to Pescare.it shop: https://www.pescare.it/gb/1-piece-spinn ... na-c_67mmm

More information about this rod in use (scroll down the page): https://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishi ... in-vs-bfs/
I wish this rod was made in a 2 piece. I've been drooling over it a few years now. There is another option that does come in a 2 piece, the Abu Salty Stage Bait Finesse models which have a lower limit similar to the Raison and an upper limit of 15 to 20g depending on model. The price is pretty comparable with the Valley Hill as well.
I completely understand sir! The Valley Hill ROC-67MMM is one of very few rods where the first time you handle it, you just know it's the right rod for what you plan to use it for! I've only ever felt that way about a few rods, chief among them, my Daiwa Steez Racing Design RD STZ6101ML+FB "Shallow Cover Finesse, the EG Rapid Gunner RSR, and the incomparable Sedition White Falcon! \:D/
2022 Vexus VX20/Mercury 250 Pro XS | 2021 Vexus AVX 1980/Mercury 150 Pro XS

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by Firstoutfisher » Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:18 am

If you're wanting a higher end BFS rod may I reccomend the evergreen phase fielden star baitfinesse. I believe kiwifishingshop and backlash both have them in stock at the moment. I have used mine with 7,8 and 10 lb fluoro. Mostly for weightless plastics or small finesse jigs. Sweet spot for the rod is around 6-9G but it can cast from 5-12g.

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by Fishing4Fun » Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:14 am

A few things at play here IMO. BFS is losely used term. To some guys what they are describing is mag fineesse or more or less ML powered rods. Others are true BFS limit pushers with Light and UL rods and some of the lightest baits they can cast. The complex part is the high end part. Why? Because there are more and even higher end rods produced in the ML category than Light and UL. My UL light Majorcraft Corza for example is rated 1/32 to 1/4 oz. This is much different rod than my Sedition Crystobal which is rated 1/8 to 5/8. Where one rod ends the other begins almost with these two.

If you are wanting a rod rated with those low true BFS like ratings and not the mag finesse ratings you won't have as many of the $400 - $700 plus rod options that have the style, components, looks and prestige.

My current finesse/BFS rods:

Sedition Cristobal - Custom Steez/KTF spool
Majorcraft Speedstlye ML - Alphas CT SV
MG P3 Criffhanger /Siliver pixy
Custom NFC 6'7 1/8 to 3/8 with an 2012 Alde BFS
Phenix Feather Light 1/8 to 3/8 with a yelow pixy for balsa baits
Majorcraft Corza UL - Daiwa Gek

I have these listed in the order of their power ratings. When someone says the word BFS there is a good chance it likely doesn't match your definition of it. Some of these you would be hard pressed to get much usable distance with a 1/8 oz bait others will flat out sling one.

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by bulldog1935 » Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:05 am

"BFS" gets hammered into everyone's squre hole.
BFS is the reel, the combination of shallow, lightweight spool, low-inertia spool bearings, and threadline - it's a vehicle to fish threadline on baitcast tackle.
While the reel mods go back to 1985 and small-frame Ambassadeur, the moniker Bait Finesse System was coined in print c.2000 by Hiroyuki Motoyama.
True BFS? - Get Over It.

Going back to the 30s, threadline rods are longer, progressive tapers, not to be confused with the short para-taper UL rods that appeared in US in the '70s. They first appeared not for panfish, but for Atlantic salmon.
1939 Allcocks catalog calls out casting "ultra-light baits" and catching big fish on "finesse rods"
Image Image

The first BFS reels, which didn't carry that name, also appeared in the 30s, incorporating lightweight alloy spool with shallow cork arbor, also intended to fish ultralight baits on 4-lb silk braid (which is the same diameter as PE#1 or 4-lb mono).
Image Image

The rod can be stream trout, area trout, bass finesse, salt finesse, shore/surf finesse.
It can be rated XUL to MM - if it works in your niche with BFS (reel), that makes it a "BFS rod"
Image

The rod above, might destroy it catching bass from a kayak - the rods below, no problem.
Image

Image
Image

noteworthy, you'll never see "true finesse" or "power finesse" used anywhere outside of an internet bulletin board misnomer. Kurodai is black sea perch - to me, this is salt kayak finesse, because it's my one salt finesse rod I'm confident I can't destroy catching inshore fish from a kayak.
Image
Image

shore finesse (equates with rockfish and "light game" -
- this long tip would be too risky to fish inshore from a kayak)
Image
Image

shore/surf micro-jigging - while this has the backbone for kayak, its length is ungainly
Image
Image Image
_____________________________________

Keeping it simple, I'll stick to low-profile reels.
I chose 34-mm Daiwa, I have a Steez, and 3 Zillions, which all exchange spools. My spools include Roro-X and AMO fixed-inductor (linear mag) for the lightest lures to the greatest distance, and Ray's Studio SV spools for wider lure range and 100% backlash-proof. Silver Wolf has increased LW pitch, which lays line wide on the spool, to prevent line dig down to PE#0.4.
My lines range from PE#0.6 on Zillion Silver Wolf to PE#1.2 in salt ML. The heavy stock Silver Wolf spool? - it's in a can w/ PE#1.2 for ML back-up.
Image Image
Image Image

I've done a lot of bearing trials - most aftermarket bearings out-perform Daiwa's stock shielded microbearings.
Roro Air bearings have a 10% distance edge casting lightest lures; KTF/IXA double bearings are a very close second, and the outer race gives them a wider load range, both casting heavier weights, and safe with big drive loads.
Image

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by dragon1 » Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:56 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:05 am
"BFS" gets hammered into everyone's squre hole.
BFS is the reel, the combination of shallow, lightweight spool, low-inertia spool bearings, and threadline - it's a vehicle to fish threadline on baitcast tackle.
While the reel mods go back to 1985 and small-frame Ambassadeur, the moniker Bait Finesse System was coined in print c.2000 by Hiroyuki Motoyama.
True BFS? - Get Over It.

Going back to the 30s, threadline rods are longer, progressive tapers, not to be confused with the short para-taper UL rods that appeared in US in the '70s. They first appeared not for panfish, but for Atlantic salmon.
1939 Allcocks catalog calls out casting "ultra-light baits" and catching big fish on "finesse rods"
Image Image

The first BFS reels, which didn't carry that name, also appeared in the 30s, incorporating lightweight alloy spool with shallow cork arbor, also intended to fish ultralight baits on 4-lb silk braid (which is the same diameter as PE#1 or 4-lb mono).
Image Image

The rod can be stream trout, area trout, bass finesse, salt finesse, shore/surf finesse.
It can be rated XUL to MM - if it works in your niche with BFS (reel), that makes it a "BFS rod"
Image

The rod above, might destroy it catching bass from a kayak - the rods below, no problem.
Image

Image
Image

noteworthy, you'll never see "true finesse" or "power finesse" used anywhere outside of an internet bulletin board misnomer. Kurodai is black sea perch - to me, this is salt kayak finesse, because it's my one salt finesse rod I'm confident I can't destroy catching inshore fish from a kayak.
Image
Image

shore finesse (equates with rockfish and "light game" -
- this long tip would be too risky to fish inshore from a kayak)
Image
Image

shore/surf micro-jigging - while this has the backbone for kayak, its length is ungainly
Image
Image Image
_____________________________________

Keeping it simple, I'll stick to low-profile reels.
I chose 34-mm Daiwa, I have a Steez, and 3 Zillions, which all exchange spools. My spools include Roro-X and AMO fixed-inductor (linear mag) for the lightest lures to the greatest distance, and Ray's Studio SV spools for wider lure range and 100% backlash-proof. Silver Wolf has increased LW pitch, which lays line wide on the spool, to prevent line dig down to PE#0.4.
My lines range from PE#0.6 on Zillion Silver Wolf to PE#1.2 in salt ML. The heavy stock Silver Wolf spool? - it's in a can w/ PE#1.2 for ML back-up.
Image Image
Image Image

I've done a lot of bearing trials - most aftermarket bearings out-perform Daiwa's stock shielded microbearings.
Roro Air bearings have a 10% distance edge casting lightest lures; KTF/IXA double bearings are a very close second, and the outer race gives them a wider load range, both casting heavier weights, and safe with big drive loads.
Image
Awesome, thanks for sharing! I have read your post on some of these BFS options before...

https://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishi ... in-vs-bfs/
"It is like a finger pointing away to the Moon...don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all of that heavenly glory."

bulldog1935
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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by bulldog1935 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 4:37 am

dragon1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:56 pm
Awesome, thanks for sharing! I have read your post on some of these BFS options before...

https://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishi ... in-vs-bfs/
Thanks friend, the long versions on rods are discussed on this BR thread - https://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishi ... 04-bfs-ul/

The point, BFS is the threadline reel, but the rod is the niche, and what makes it personal, boat, kayak, wading rivers, shore-casting ponds or tide passes - this part is where each of us will have our perspectives.

Image

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I just addedd this rod, which fits in my bike half-frame bag (along w/ 3 other rod choices), and can take it to places like this, only accessible by bike or by a half-day kayak paddle
Image Image
Image Image Image Image

more old school finesse

Image

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by dragon1 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 5:21 pm

Wow, fantastic stuff!

I actually have a Yamaga Blanks Blue Current III 82b listed on the Swap/Sell/Trade (gotta pay the Insidious Revenue Stealers).

Apologies for my shameless plug.
"It is like a finger pointing away to the Moon...don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all of that heavenly glory."

bulldog1935
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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by bulldog1935 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:37 pm

@dragon1 Someone should be shore fishing that rod, it's a jewel - I can cast 2 g to 130' with mine.

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by dragon1 » Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:09 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:37 pm
@dragon1 Someone should be shore fishing that rod, it's a jewel - I can cast 2 g to 130' with mine.
I love the Blue Current III 82b, just that here in middle Tennessee, on these creeks and rivers, it's many times jungle warfare and very tight confines for casting. Lol.
"It is like a finger pointing away to the Moon...don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all of that heavenly glory."

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by HellaBread » Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:17 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:05 am
"BFS" gets hammered into everyone's squre hole.
BFS is the reel, the combination of shallow, lightweight spool, low-inertia spool bearings, and threadline - it's a vehicle to fish threadline on baitcast tackle.
While the reel mods go back to 1985 and small-frame Ambassadeur, the moniker Bait Finesse System was coined in print c.2000 by Hiroyuki Motoyama.
True BFS? - Get Over It.
I tell everyone who asks what is or isn’t “true” bfs this; the term bfs is as vague as sports car. It’s a massive umbrella term that branches off into various niche/hyper specialized versions of said thing. BFS somehow got morphed (by the recent influx of interest and certain youtube videos i’m sure) into sub 2g, mountain stream style as being true bfs in the states.

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by bulldog1935 » Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:41 pm

That is not true. BFS is a reel that has the combination of a shallow lightweight spool, low intertia spool bearings, made to fish threadline - any line comparable in size to No 1 silk thread, give or take, which is equivalent diameter to 4 pound mono.
This is fact, Bait Finesse System, first stated in print by Mr. Motoyama in 2000. It had already been going on for a decade in Japan.
His first book was about stream trout fishing. For the next decade, his books were about shore bass fishing using BFS reels.
BFS does not equal UL. The fishing is finesse fishing. The rod is a finesse rod, and more recently, a baitfinesse rod.
Image Image
However you use the reel is BFS fishing.
Every fishing culture has their tradition of threadline fishing using finesse rods - without reels, the Japanese go back centuries, long rod, a technique they called Cara. In Great Britain, Alexander Wanless.
In the US, Ernest Schweibert, later Dave Witlock and Joe Robinson - Don Iovino was racing his small-frame Ambassadeurs and tournament-bass-fishing 5-lb mono in the 1990s.
The only thing that's new is people trying to package and sell it.
Image
Last edited by bulldog1935 on Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by HellaBread » Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:50 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2024 12:41 pm
That is not true. BFS is a reel that has the combination of a shallow lightweight spool, low intertia spool bearings, made to fish threadline - any line comparable in size to No 1 silk thread, give or take, which is equivalent diameter to 4 pound mono.
This is fact, Bait Finesse System, first stated in print by Mr. Motoyama in 2000. It had already been going on for a decade in Japan.
His first book was about stream trout fishing. For the next decade, his books were about shore bass fishing using BFS reels.
BFS does not equal UL.
Image Image
However you use the reel is BFS fishing.
Every fishing culture has their tradition of threadline fishing using finesse rods - without reels, the Japanese go back centuries.
In the US, Ernest Schweibert, later Dave Witlock and Joe Robinson - Don Iovino was racing his small-frame Ambassadeurs and tournament-fishing 5-lb mono in the 1990s.
Image
The shallow and lightweight spool + light line is a given I was referring to the guys who like to argue about what weights/applications constitute “real bfs”

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by bulldog1935 » Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:05 pm

That I understand too well - the guys who look at the rod rating, ignore the low end, and jump on their soapbox about the high end rating.
Image
Any good progressive taper rod will have an extreme lure range, which goes higher as the rod gets longer, and "more" progressive, or superprogressive.
They all have their sweet spots at the low-end range, but it's also helpful for the rod to have a wider, more versatile lure range.
One thing you can count on, that upper lure range gives the rod butt-power to turn big fish.
Last edited by bulldog1935 on Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by HellaBread » Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:20 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:05 pm
That I understand too well - the guys who look at the rod rating, ignore the low end, and jump on their soapbox about the high end rating.
The 2 biggest pet peeves I got with the state of BFS is that people do not understand this concept and that people think spool weight is the blanket definitive metric of how well a bfs reel will perform and cast across the board. I’ve seen people arguing tooth and nail about how big of a difference 0.6g of spool weight makes in their distance with X bait when all the other basic factors (spool diameter, line diameter, rod length and taper, application of the setup, etc) aren’t even considered. It’s gotten to the point of people modifying super light almost meme worthy weight aftermarket spools further to the point where you would definitely question the structural integrity of that spool at drag pressures above 1-2lb max or on fish bigger than stocked trout.

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Re: Thoughts on high end bfs?

Post by bulldog1935 » Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:29 pm

If you're limiting yourself to the lightest baits cast to the greatest distance, you probably can't go too light on the spool.
If you're looking for something more versatile, the spool weight is less significant.
E.g. having moving-inductor SV function on Daiwa lets you use the same spool for maximum lure range. That moving-inductor mechanism adds 3 g to the spool vs. a fixed-inductor (linear mag only) spool.

I can't find it, but TryAngle has a blurb on their recent Tough-Light spools for Isuzu reel BFS-mod - in it, they state that they optimized their spool weights through trials, and that lightest is not always best.
The moving conducting mass is part of Lenz' equation, so you need enough mass to get a sufficient mag brake.

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