Bait the Finesse?!? Shimano -v- Daiwa Product Insight

[spookybaits]

@Tokugawa Man we're just messing around, it's not a big deal. It's a funny incident because its Cal. If it was anyone else it wouldn't have been as funny. I mean- your telling me Cal not finding the cast control knob isn't funny? C'mon..
It's all in good fun. No need to call people 'sheeple'.

That being said- the reviews/previews here are the sh*t, no denying it. The best. And that new drag data is a super cool addition. But- a couple of those catagories deserve a re-test(free spin time, line coming out, ergonomics). Right? I have faith it'll be rechecked in the 2nd installment.
Doesn't really matter, the Shimano will win in the end
Unless the t3 gets extra points for those sweet sweet knobs. Man those are sick. Maybe even the coolest knobs ever.

[mark poulson]

Touche! I guess, if a carpenter were still making bass boats, we'd be stuck with the original Skeeter, totally out of plywood.
I wasn't knocking engineers. I was trying to say that engineers probably aren't the best people to evaluate fishing tackle performance, side by side, unless they're avid anglers and can get past the millimeter differences and get down to fishability.
And I was trying to show how even bright people, of which are certainly engineers, can make mistakes when they make assumptions.
They did splat the probe into Mars, instead of having it land like planned, and that came down to a failure to communicate, not being dumb. But the same "deep into it" mentality that let all those smart people miss one crucial detail, because each side of the pond assumed the other was using the same system, is what I meant by not seeing the forest for the trees.
It was an expensive lesson in the perils of outsourcing, or shared tasking, even if it is to another English speaking country.
I do want my fishing equipment designed by engineers, but with the input of anglers who will actually use it.
And I don't know an engineer who can't defend his decisions as correct, given the parameters he was given to start with, even though the item he designed failed.

[mikeysam]

To err is human. Let the one who has never erred cast the next stone.

[BucketHunter]

STRING HIM UP WITH SAMURAI BRAID!!!!!!

*Phone rings*
Death squad speaking...
eeeer eummm what?..
Oh he admitted to the mistake?..
So they made an addendum?..
Really. Well I guess this torch thing is probably is a bit overkill then...
Yes I'll be sure to dispose of this bucket of tar safely...
What was the issue?
You mean the CC knob is on the palming side?
Shimano really designed it that way?..
Ok thank you. Good bye.
*Hangs up phone*

WHERE IS BANTAM1??? HE MUST ANSWER FOR THIS!!!!!

[Tokugawa]

@Tokugawa Man we're just messing around, it's not a big deal. It's a funny incident because its Cal. If it was anyone else it wouldn't have been as funny. I mean- your telling me Cal not finding the cast control knob isn't funny? C'mon..
It's all in good fun. No need to call people 'sheeple'.

OK - I over reacted bubs. Sorry about that.

Now back to the tackle - that new Sissy Bob is intriguing. Might be my first Shimano in a while...like I need another bait finesse reel. Does it come in lefty? Oh crap - it does.

[kakaryan]

I think TT guys have given us hundreds of valuable reviews during these years and now they just made one mistake due to carelessness. Still, I appreciate all the efforts they have made and the time they have spent. Thank you.

I understand Shimano guys are not happy but may I suggest you actually try a T3 Air before saying Shimano is going to win anyway at the end? I know free spool spinning time is not accurate but when a feather weight spool with little inertia could spin for 7-8s what does this mean? --very little friction slowing down the spool due to superb bearings and well designed braking system.

I have used a few decent finesse spools including the legendary CQ51S and pricy one such as ZPI. Have to admit none of them spin as free as the T3 Air. The only close match is the Megabass finesse spool.

Cal, if possible, I would love to see you include aftermarket spools especially the Megabass finesse spool (IS/Zonda) for comparison in the second part of the review.

Cheers.

[Mcyl]

Funny. My BFS spool weighs 9 grams. As does my other Yumeya spool in my Core. As does japantackle and other websites.

Now, I believe a stock Core is around 11 grams.

My out of box free spool was much longer than 3 seconds.

You also neglected to point out all the disclaimers around the T3 Air and line strength. I have landed a lot of fish on the Yumeya spools in pretty nasty conditions on 20 and 30 lb braid. Thought Diawa had indicated no more than 8lb?

Sincerely,

Shimano fan boy (I own more Daiwa's than Shimanos)

Also, weighing with bearing creates inaccuracies. The biggest example will be the T3 air's micro finesse bearings. Most of the weight would be in the huge solid outer race. Now consider this, the outer race is in contact with the reel frame and does not spin and therefore will not count to spool inertia. Also weight on the outer edges of the spool counts for a lot more than at weight on the spindle when assessing inertia. Hence the appeal of super shallow spools.
I don't believe the BFS is a match up with the T3 air in application.
With the Aldebaran XG, the closest match is the Pixy SPR.
The T3 airs casting range is lighter, in the realm of ZPI/KTF mods.
I can only think of two production reels that is in the same class as the T3 AIR and I doubt they can cast as low.

[Mcyl]

Lol I can't believe Cal didnt know where the cast control knob was
(To be fair, I probably would've started wrenching on it too. Or read the instructions first ).

The cast control knob under that bar wouldn't bother me as much as the fact that it's on the palming side. Having to change hands to adjust the cast control knob would be like re-learning to write with the opposite hand. It really feels like Shimano is trying to reinvent the wheel lately(and failing at it).

Maybe It would feel natural after using it for a while?
Yeah... That just seems... I dunno.
So why did they move it? Is it just so the handle/drag star is closer to the reel? I'm sitting here air reeling- I don't see how having the handle 1/8-1/4in closer to the body improves anything. Seems like you'd bump your thumb knuckle.
It just all seems unnecessary.
When they do the casting test, I'd like to see them take a standard reel ( like the curado 50e) and put an ultra light/shallow spool in there and compare that as well.
Maybe when the casting part of the review comes it'll all make sense.

Actually, finesse casting reels started off with the CC non handle side:


Then someone reinvented the wheel and shifted it.

[Mcyl]

I don't think the editor's note at the bottom is gonna cut it.

Well that's all yer gettin' until part 2... that's what part 2 is for afterall

Hey Cal, I've done worse, with my first posted review http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=49170
I decided to test out the Exsence DCs night capabilities. In one night I managed to:

1. Put the reel on backwards.
2. Forget the levelwind when threading.
3. Lastly, I managed to drop the palm plate into 22ft of water. That took about 1h 45m to recover.
But I can report that the DC unit is COMPLETELY waterproof and pressure tested to...22ft.

Love the new data on drag response and look forward to part2.

[WoodT]

I understand Shimano guys are not happy but may I suggest you actually try a T3 Air before saying Shimano is going to win anyway at the end?

Now...I didn't say that, to be clear. I would think that the T3 Air could very well cast lighter weights than my Aldebaran. I also think that the Aldebaran does just fine relative to the rational level of fishing I could or would want to do (i.e., crappie fishing on up) and has a (much) greater capability beyond it. My thinking there is entirely based on manufacturing specs and what active users report on this forum. I did like the drag studies in the article very much, as well. Drag is particularly relevant to the T3 given how fragile the spool is (not being rated for braid, etc.).

I also can't tell, to your point, if you use the BFS as well? It would be cool if you could post a comparative view.

I know free spool spinning time is not accurate but when a feather weight spool with little inertia could spin for 7-8s what does this mean?

I do not know what this means. I do know that I have spools that do this. Free spin is pretty subjective, as I think we all agree. Sometimes it's a line call...as Cal said in the review, "Neither spool would continue to spin. The T3 Air showed signs of wanting to move, but then stopped each time." I don't know if this is quantifiable. But again...due to spool weight alone, I would think the T3 Air would spin longer. Unless the tolerances really suck.

Now, whether I should try one out...thanks to your post, I don't have to!

{quote]I have used a few decent finesse spools including the legendary CQ51S and pricy one such as ZPI. Have to admit none of them spin as free as the T3 Air. The only close match is the Megabass finesse spool[/quote]

I got one of them. You saved me cash, dude. And if the IS is close, I can say that it is better than casting extreme finesse weights than the Yumeya spools. I just don't have the use case for things much lighter than 1/12 total weight. And the bitter pill of all of it is a $60 spinning reel would probably skunk most any baitcasting UL platform. Or some $15 crappie poles.

FInesse fishing at these UL levels make me nervous...we all start to sound like a bunch of fly fishermen.

[zenbassr]

.. when a feather weight spool with little inertia could spin for 7-8s what does this mean?

low inertia means the spool starts up faster and slows down sooner. period.

if a lightweight, empty spool spins for a long time, that implies the brakes are not on... which makes sense because its unlikely an empty sub 11gram spool would reach a high enough RPM to activate the brakes.

oh yea, did anyone check the bearing lubrication?

quite often Shimano bearings are packed in grease. i have a hunch that grease will lessen free spool too... per the article, these spin tests were done "out of the box" so we really cant say there was a level playing field to begin with

[q1w2e3_89]

I can't get my ZPI BFC 911RSR with KTF bearings to free spool for more than 1.5 seconds with no magnets and CC turned down all the way. Yet, it casts <3.5g baits MUCH farther than my BFS XG with ABEC7 bearings which can easily free spool for 10 seconds. I think the BFS XG's performance is optimized for baits between 5-12g and I use it mainly for ~10g shallow jerkbaits now. Point is, free spool time doesn't always correlate to casting ability or inertia.

[Tokugawa]

quite often Shimano bearings are packed in grease. i have a hunch that grease will lessen free spool too... per the article, these spin tests were done "out of the box" so we really cant say there was a level playing field to begin with

Or...maybe "out of the box" is as level as it gets. No mods or alterations.

I can't get my ZPI BFC 911RSR with KTF bearings to free spool for more than 1.5 seconds with no magnets and CC turned down all the way. Yet, it casts <3.5g baits MUCH farther than my BFS XG with ABEC7 bearings which can easily free spool for 10 seconds. I think the BFS XG's performance is optimized for baits between 5-12g and I use it mainly for ~10g shallow jerkbaits now. Point is, free spool time doesn't always correlate to casting ability or inertia.

Agreed! Spool inertia on an empty spool is interesting...but even better on a spool loaded with line. It makes a slightly deeper spool spin longer with the extra mass of the line...but isn't the point to be as light as possible to cast light baits? So, is it possible that a low spin time is better with finesse baits?

[dragon1]

From my experience, and tests(actual casting tests), the free spool times are inconclusive in actual casting distance/ease.

And from my experience, and others... a Shimano is much easier to set and cast than any Daiwa (and by all means, each time we've put them head to head... Shimano outcast Daiwa every time), even though it has "external" braking adjustments...

Casting would really make the tests conclusive, not the free spool time, or the weights that make the spools move... that's for desk junkies, not for people who actually fish the reels. Making actual casting tests in head to head comparisons would be highly appreciated, and CONCLUSIVE.

Goes both ways depending on the end user, tech, conditions, etc.

As noted above...Abu has had some fantastic finesse BCs for some time. Also, bearings from Shimano, Daiwa and others can be overpacked from the factory, again as noted.

[BRbasser]

That's interesting. Does it rotate like a normal cast control knob?

Yup it does.
It can be a little tricky thou. While I was playing around with the reel at the shop I accidentaly openned up
the side plate. Good thing I have a good grip on the reel or else im in trouble.

I tried also to move the other end where the normal cast control used to be and I cant move it.
They dont want me to try the spanner tool coz I might scratch the finish.

? The nut is tightened. No. You can't move it. That is the awesome thing about tightened nuts, ain't it? We generally want them to stay tight. To the point of needing to use tools to loosen them. When they are tight, and the cast control is also tight, you get predictable behaviors like 3 second free spool times.

I cannot tell if you own this reel? If not...check this out:




The shop may not want you to use the tool because they prefer people to buy reels prior to disassembling them.



If you have purchased it, then right off the bat, i congratulate you, sir. You own a freakin great reel that, unlike the T3 Air, can be used to target more than just six inch brown trout in distilled water without fear of the spool crushing inward like a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon on my forehead.

When using the tool as described in the simple instruction sheet (i am betting the daiwa 3-D mag instruction sheet is rated much higher) you will not scratch the finish. The tool is plastic. The nut is metal. If you have a bad seizure, or perhaps make seizure-like back and forth motions with your hand, and begin rubbing the tool as hard as you can across the reel, then yes dude: you will scratch it. But if we get to this point, friend, I am gonna say this reel is too much for you. Send it to me: I will never do that deal with my hand while holding any reel.

Somewhere, Keiko is trying on an Easter Bunny suit and she is laughing. Jesus wept, folks. I know it is just the Internet and it is just fishing but...come on.

Wood, absolute funniest post of the year! I have not laughed this hard in weeks.