The Search For One : Guess Who's Back Building Rods?

[IlliniDawg01]

this entire diatribe is pure conjecture - i dont cast that way - I will need more proof . Please re-edit every sentence so it reads - I theoretically believe...blah, blah, blah---- until such proof is provided
I get it now- you just like holding others to standards you dont/cannot follow yourself.

Calm down. He is making a very valid argument. When casting a rod pretty much no matter how you have the guides lined up there will be some significant twisting of the blank during the cast. Does the flexing during casting cause blanks to break? I know I have had several rods break during the cast (though usually while throwing lures outside of the recommended range), a few break while fighting a fish, and a few break while accidentally setting the hook on a snag or trying to yank a lure out of a tree improperly. Obviously rods can be broken in many ways.

While I don't necessarily agree with Cal's assertion (which he is more or less passing on from Loomis) that spiral wrapping a rod will lead to better longevity, I do believe that without a doubt a spiral wrapped casting rod will perform significantly better while fighting a fish than a regularly wrapped casting rod. Will the rod last longer? Maybe, maybe not. But it will work better while fighting a fish during its lifetime, which is important to me and I would think most anglers.

DaveJ

[Gblaze]

Well, we can agree to disagree.
I dont think its a valid argument based on my experience.

I have only broken a rod(s) (3 to be exact) fighting fish/or at hookset - never casting. I also swimbait - hucking much larger/heavy lures than what is the norm using other trchniques- of note ive never broken a swimbait rod. I think - that is because my SB rods are spiral wrapped. Ive thrown these lures on non-spirals and It felt like it torques the blank more in my hands - but I dont have empirical force/torque/weight data to support my opinion- but neither does anyone else.

So- my gripe is not with an idea that is different with mine- its with the notion that you hold others to standards you yourself are not willing to follow. The do as I say- but not as i do BS. Thats all . Im done

[Snidley]

I once broke a new rod on the second cast and, in the same week, I broke the replacement an hour in to fishing a few days later. They were both Berkley series One 9' casting rods. I had to go back to Li'l Abner casting academy after that .

[Tokugawa]

Does the length of time a rod experiences torque have more of an impact than the frequency with which it is subjected to torque (if there is any impact at all)? Apparently, nobody knows. If evidence does become available, most of us will probably read it at this site first.

And that's the last I have to say about this.

I've been trying to avoid this...but here goes.

Basic composites science: damage is accumulated and can be understood as stress*duration. Every time you deflect the rod from its "normal" set, you damage it. At some point, the accumulated damage plus instantaneous stress value exceeds the ultimate strength of the material and a catastrophic break occurs.

Spiral wraps greatly reduce the torque portion of the damage accumulation as stress and duration are both largest when fighting a fish (at least for competent anglers...if you never hook up...then... ). Blanks are not design optimized to withstand torque "in sheer". They are designed to have very high durability in the stretch or compression direction - linearly - and in hoop strength. The higher "performance" the blank, the less torque it can endure due to the higher stiffness and higher fiber volume.

In a nutshell: Cal (and Mr. Loomis) are correct.

[dragon1]

Does the length of time a rod experiences torque have more of an impact than the frequency with which it is subjected to torque (if there is any impact at all)? Apparently, nobody knows. If evidence does become available, most of us will probably read it at this site first.

And that's the last I have to say about this.

I've been trying to avoid this...but here goes.

Basic composites science: damage is accumulated and can be understood as stress*duration. Every time you deflect the rod from its "normal" set, you damage it. At some point, the accumulated damage plus instantaneous stress value exceeds the ultimate strength of the material and a catastrophic break occurs.

Spiral wraps greatly reduce the torque portion of the damage accumulation as stress and duration are both largest when fighting a fish (at least for competent anglers...if you never hook up...then... ). Blanks are not design optimized to withstand torque "in sheer". They are designed to have very high durability in the stretch or compression direction - linearly - and in hoop strength. The higher "performance" the blank, the less torque it can endure due to the higher stiffness and higher fiber volume.

In a nutshell: Cal (and Mr. Loomis) are correct.

Nice! So, is this still the case if one casts a 6oz musky lure 10,000 times, in order to hook up a musky for a fight of only a couple minutes or less?

For me...acid/spiral wrap configuration EVERY TIME if this option exists. What I know is that with a spiral wrapped BC, the line PULLS DOWN on the set points (guides) and apparently distributes strain more evenly on the blank (granted the guides have been set up correctly) - vs PUSHING down on the blank, such is the case with the guides on top. Whether this makes a difference on straining the blank, I don't know, however there is less torque on the blank with a spiral wrap design (granted one has the good fortune of wresting quarry that will test the blank enough to merit this).

To add more confusion, most heavy SW rods are guides on top...but dang, when the blank is that short and stout, I suppose it is more important to have robust and strong guides, eh?

[Snidley]

Thanks Tokugowa. That explanation makes a lot of sense to me and shows that you were not sleeping through physics class. The utility of a spiral wrap on a Bass rod can be debated however in my experience it's best to be prepared with equipment that can handle unexpected visitors that might show up at the end of your line (like the time I caught a 20lb Carp while throwing a crankbait for smallies with a 6'6" casting rod on a very fast moving river).

[spookybaits]

So anyone know what's up on the triggerless configuration on the bigger rods
(and what appears to be a spinning reel seat on the 8' mag heavy rod- 'handle type edge cast e'- see here- http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Gary_Loo ... -NFCC.html ) ?

@Cal did Gary mention this?

Right now alot of the swimbait fisherman are switching to low down customs rods- rods made by a swimbait guy specifically for swimbaits. Not one of them has a triggerless seat.
(However- most guys get them in spiral wrap, which now has me reconsidering spiral wraps on a big bait rod lol.)

[Snidley]

i also do not get that handle setup. I have several long, stout Salmon casters and I would not want them without the trigger that's for sure.

[Aaronb]

I guess maybe I'm the only one that thinks the spiral wrap could put more twisting stress on the blank. I was thinking the guides going around the side of the blank would be causing it to want to twist that direction. Then the guides on the bottom would be twisting it back the other way to straighten it out. I'm not an engineer, but that seems like a reasonable thought. I guess if someone has real proof there's nothing to it I'm interested to hear.

[dragon1]

I guess maybe I'm the only one that thinks the spiral wrap could put more twisting stress on the blank. I was thinking the guides going around the side of the blank would be causing it to want to twist that direction. Then the guides on the bottom would be twisting it back the other way to straighten it out. I'm not an engineer, but that seems like a reasonable thought. I guess if someone has real proof there's nothing to it I'm interested to hear.

Nope...completely opposite. The torque on the blank will mimic a spinning rod set up. FWIW, you can see blank torque on rods in a video or the next time you pull hard and to the side with most traditional guide-on-tip BC rods...just watch the guide angles on the top of your rod.

Otherwise, I am not interested in searching for "hard data" or "proof" sheets at this time to post...sorry.

[dragon1]

So anyone know what's up on the triggerless configuration on the bigger rods
(and what appears to be a spinning reel seat on the 8' mag heavy rod- 'handle type edge cast e'- see here- http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Gary_Loo ... -NFCC.html ) ?

@Cal did Gary mention this?

Right now alot of the swimbait fisherman are switching to low down customs rods- rods made by a swimbait guy specifically for swimbaits. Not one of them has a triggerless seat.
(However- most guys get them in spiral wrap, which now has me reconsidering spiral wraps on a big bait rod lol.)

Soon...a lot of guys will find out that LDC rods are using Phenix blanks and that other custom builders can make SB rods as well or better...for the same price or less.

BTW, spiral wrap has been around for decades on rods from light to heavy powers for all types of fishing. 100% of all my custom BC rods have been spiral wrapped...the ONLY reason I would change is if I fished tourneys and wanted to minimize guide tangling in a rod locker.

[Aaronb]

I guess maybe I'm the only one that thinks the spiral wrap could put more twisting stress on the blank. I was thinking the guides going around the side of the blank would be causing it to want to twist that direction. Then the guides on the bottom would be twisting it back the other way to straighten it out. I'm not an engineer, but that seems like a reasonable thought. I guess if someone has real proof there's nothing to it I'm interested to hear.

Nope...completely opposite. The torque on the blank will mimic a spinning rod set up. FWIW, you can see blank torque on rods in a video or the next time you pull hard and to the side with most traditional guide-on-tip BC rods...just watch the guide angles on the top of your rod.

Otherwise, I am not interested in searching for "hard data" or "proof" sheets at this time to post...sorry.

Fair enough. I just feel it's a solution looking for a problem. I've never broken a fishing rod for any reason, so I don't see what gain there is. I guess it's similar to the left hand reel group. I reel left or right hand with no observed advantage or disadvantage in either. I guess that's a whole different debate though. That being said I'm considering a spiral wrap just to try it out.

[dragon1]

Fair enough. I just feel it's a solution looking for a problem. I've never broken a fishing rod for any reason, so I don't see what gain there is. I guess it's similar to the left hand reel group. I reel left or right hand with no observed advantage or disadvantage in either. I guess that's a whole different debate though. That being said I'm considering a spiral wrap just to try it out.

Most folks will never know the difference or miss it...just like most won't ever miss fishing a $500 top end JDM reel vs a Quantum (per se), or what a 50/50 weight distribution, proper tires, suspension and steering set up on a sports car will do vs one with just big/showy wheels/tires.

This said, the lighter the blank, and the bigger the torque on it (read big fish), the more noticeable that the spiral wrap will help to minimize blank torque/twist during the fight.

Again as I mentioned earlier...on short, overly stout and powerful rods like a big game ocean rod, a spiral wrap is likely not as important as stout components, ie the line rollers, and an experienced and capable angler.

[Aaronb]

Fair enough. I just feel it's a solution looking for a problem. I've never broken a fishing rod for any reason, so I don't see what gain there is. I guess it's similar to the left hand reel group. I reel left or right hand with no observed advantage or disadvantage in either. I guess that's a whole different debate though. That being said I'm considering a spiral wrap just to try it out.

Most folks will never know the difference or miss it...just like most won't ever miss fishing a $500 top end JDM reel vs a Quantum (per se), or what a 50/50 weight distribution, proper tires, suspension and steering set up on a sports car will do vs one with just big/showy wheels/tires.

This said, the lighter the blank, and the bigger the torque on it (read big fish), the more noticeable that the spiral wrap will help to minimize blank torque/twist during the fight.

Again as I mentioned earlier...on short, overly stout and powerful rods like a big game ocean rod, a spiral wrap is likely not as important as stout components, ie the line rollers, and an experienced and capable angler.

Thanks for taking the time to have this conversation. I think for a lot of things I do I'm not sure what the spiral wrap would add. I just recently started experimenting with rod building. I'm also going through the finesse bug like a lot of people. I am pretty interested in a building a spiral wrapped finesse rod.

[dragon1]

Thanks for taking the time to have this conversation. I think for a lot of things I do I'm not sure what the spiral wrap would add. I just recently started experimenting with rod building. I'm also going through the finesse bug like a lot of people. I am pretty interested in a building a spiral wrapped finesse rod.

In a finesse BC rod, a spiral/acid wrap will enhance the overall rod IMO...you can also use fewer guides for overall lighter weight and maximize the blank's lifting power with the guide configuration.